Let them Eat MEAT! Learning spiritual discernment: licentiousness

Grace777x70 · Jan 19, 2017

Amen...and our own attempts at righteousness are ", worthless/useless" in relation to the meat of the "word of righteousness" which is Christ's righteousness.

Being able to discern which is of Him and which is me trying to establish my own righteousness is how we are trained in this and thus we grow up in maturity in Christ.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Not accustomed as I said earlier means "unacquainted with something, unexperienced".

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 19, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Too long on computer screens?

My eyes hurt with a flu. HOPE that's not what's happening to you.

Grace777x70 · Jan 19, 2017

Ariel82 said:

There is another view that some have concerning the Nicolaitans.

The meaning of the word actually means "To rule over the laity". Those in leadership trying to dominate the sheep. Jesus hates this.

Real world meaning

In its ecclesiastical setting, Nicolaitans means the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity. Members are compelled and forced to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates.

"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU, but being examples to the flock" (1Peter 5:1 - 3).

Nicolaitans - Why does God HATE them?

stonesoffire · Jan 19, 2017

This nefarious attempt to mix the saints has been termed a “Nicolas spirit.” Now before all the wonderful brethren out there named Nicolas get in an uproar, the name Nicolas is Greek, Nikolaos (Strong’s #3532, from Nike, the goddess of victory, “to utterly vanquish,” and laos , “the people,” where we get the English word “laity”—this comes from the Greek las, “stone,” supposedly from a legend that mankind was repopulated from stones after a great flood). Nicolas means to conquer the people, literally “I win people,” or “I dominate over the conquered.”

Now we soften this today and say it means the “victor of the people” and this is sort of correct, but in truth the compound words convey the notion of “putting down the people.” In Acts 6:5, one of the original seven deacons was Nicolas of Antioch, a proselyte (meaning he converted from Roman paganism to Judaism) who became Christian. Early church leaders—Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Epiphanius—cite this Nicolas as starting a heretical cult preaching a mixture of Christianity and licentious behavior, extreme self-indulgence, smacking of Diana worship—if not in name, then certainly in the “spirit” of Diana. He taught it was okay to mix the occult practices with Judaism and Christianity, lumping it all together and not making a distinction with the purity of Christ’s doctrine. What a dangerous proposition!

So much so that Jesus Himself denounced the doctrine of the Nicolaitans in Revelation 2:6, citing that the church of Ephesus (who had overcome Diana worship by the “special miracles” wrought through Paul’s hands; see Acts 19:11) had at least one thing going for them: they hated the practice of Nicolaitism, which Jesus also hates. And yes, the word is “hate”—to find “completely disgusting.” To loathe it with a fierce passion. To utterly reject. Jesus cannot abide mixture, for it muddles the
spreading of His fame.

am now reading "Overwhelmed By His Spirit" by James Maloney There's much more about this doctrine in it but this is the basic.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 19, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Sadly, this is where legalism and licentious are closely related.

Where as the licentious thinks ALL sin is ok.

A legalist has pet sins they will preach hellfire and brimstone over, and judge others as being sinners.. While they have their own sins, which must be ok.. ie, they excuse what sins they do commit as not very important, or it is ok if they do them, as long as they do not do these grave sins.

You can usually tell this time as they are very sin judgmental. Claim they have few if any sins, or claim their sin are mistakes or oasis..

joaniemarie · Jan 19, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

It boggles my mind how man finds it so tempting a thing to lorde it over the flock. And men often find it too tempting and cross the line. Even Jesus never beat the sheep but carefully tends us. So we follow Him and He knows us and we know Him.

But some men control the sheep of His pasture out of selfish motives for things like pride and need to be built up by people and not Christ. Those who are leaders in the church do have a responsibility to be lead ONLY by Christ so others of the sheep don't fall. To be an EXAMPLE on how to do this for the flock. So the sheep see how he follows his Shepherd.

Jesus is always strong but not overbearing., kind and gentle but never flimsy or able to be taken advantage of. He knows how to lead the sheep so they follow and are never dragged. Jesus goes before He is not behind the sheep driving us like cattle.

Stephen63 · Jan 19, 2017

Desertsrose said:

When I read the part "violent spite which rejects restraint", immediately I was reminded of some people that will attack you in spite of what your're posting.

Now when I say attack, I don't mean the outlandish kind of stuff. I mean they will subtly attack your message, acting like they agree with you, even putting "likes" on it, then outta nowhere take your post in another direction to derail it or attach false meaning to it. Spitefully wrecking your post or thread. Then others thinking like them will 'like' their post, & respond to it so that the former meaning of the post or thread is gone. When you try countermeasures to right the thread, others will personally set themselves against you to stop you.

Such spite & desire to defile & derail what would otherwise be a good thread with wonderful discussion is absolutely from Satan. He doesn't want real teaching to get out. He doesn't want God's people snatching souls out of the fire.

Jude 1: 17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

NLT: 17But you, my dear friends, must remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ said. 18They told you that in the last times there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires. 19These people are the ones who are creating divisions among you. They follow their natural instincts because they do not have God’s Spirit in them.

20But you, dear friends, must build each other up in your most holy faith, pray in the power of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]g[/SUP] 21and await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will bring you eternal life. In this way, you will keep yourselves safe in God’s love.22And you must show mercy to[SUP]h[/SUP] those whose faith is wavering. 23Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others,[SUP]i[/SUP] but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

I know this is long, but I couldn't quit writing. Is this what you're talking about, Ariel82?

joaniemarie · Jan 19, 2017

joaniemarie said:

I'm not sure all the personal details of how a man is called into the ministry. But know it is a special calling that a person is called to who was given certain gifts for.

I'm thankful too that these called out leaders are given what they need in order for the huge task of being a leader to shepherd the people. So not only can the pastor/leader/teacher have nothing to fear but neither do the sheep!

joaniemarie · Jan 19, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Sadly, this is where legalism and licentious are closely related.

Where as the licentious thinks ALL sin is ok.

A legalist has pet sins they will preach hellfire and brimstone over, and judge others as being sinners.. While they have their own sins, which must be ok.. ie, they excuse what sins they do commit as not very important, or it is ok if they do them, as long as they do not do these grave sins.

You can usually tell this time as they are very sin judgmental. Claim they have few if any sins, or claim their sin are mistakes or oasis..

It is really comforting to know Jesus equips those He calls!!

stonesoffire · Jan 19, 2017

I'm not so sure that some of this behavior would be called licentiousness though. What's the definition of carnal?

stonesoffire · Jan 19, 2017

Maloney was speaking about Ananias and Saphirra and their sin and showed how it was the nicolaitan spirit. But, he goes on to this...

Jesus hates this concept. There is a similar evil working in religiosity that attempts to keep the people quelled in a state of spiritual stupor. This is mixture as well, but it takes a “religious righteous” stance. Jesus had warned the disciples, “…Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees…” (Mark 8:15). We know a little leaven leavens the whole lump according to Galatians 5:9. The Lord perceived that even then a religious spirit was threatening to try to asphyxiate the coming move of the Spirit, and He cautioned those like Peter, the fathers of His new church, to be wary of the legalistic wiles of a spirit that seeks to stifle the Spirit’s flow among the saints.

Ariel82 · Jan 19, 2017

Stephen63 said:

When I read the part "violent spite which rejects restraint", immediately I was reminded of some people that will attack you in spite of what your're posting.

Now when I say attack, I don't mean the outlandish kind of stuff. I mean they will subtly attack your message, acting like they agree with you, even putting "likes" on it, then outta nowhere take your post in another direction to derail it or attach false meaning to it. Spitefully wrecking your post or thread. Then others thinking like them will 'like' their post, & respond to it so that the former meaning of the post or thread is gone. When you try countermeasures to right the thread, others will personally set themselves against you to stop you.

Such spite & desire to defile & derail what would otherwise be a good thread with wonderful discussion is absolutely from Satan. He doesn't want real teaching to get out. He doesn't want God's people snatching souls out of the fire.

Jude 1: 17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

NLT: 17But you, my dear friends, must remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ said. 18They told you that in the last times there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires. 19These people are the ones who are creating divisions among you. They follow their natural instincts because they do not have God’s Spirit in them.

20But you, dear friends, must build each other up in your most holy faith, pray in the power of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]g[/SUP] 21and await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will bring you eternal life. In this way, you will keep yourselves safe in God’s love.22And you must show mercy to[SUP]h[/SUP] those whose faith is wavering. 23Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others,[SUP]i[/SUP] but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

I know this is long, but I couldn't quit writing. Is this what you're talking about, Ariel82?

No, its not really the topic of this thread, but we are not ignorant of the devices of the Enemy.

We must recognize that we do not war against flesh and blood. The people may not be discerning enough to realize they are being thusly used. Therefore the answer for me has always been to pray,, because rather they are friend or foe, God is able to see into their hearts. He is able to change and heal them.

Every night before sleep I give it to God and approach each thread as a new conversation. Each member as a renewed person in Christ.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 19, 2017

G777 and stonesoffire, I had never heard any of that about the Nocolaiatans. Very interesting. Because with one of the churches of rev. He speaks to, He seemed to tie it in with the guy the donkey talked to, I thought it had something to do with doing sneaky end runs around in order for gain, but I always thought of it as financial gain, but from what you both have said, it could be the desire for other kinds of gains too, like power, respect of men, etc...

HEIsRiSen · Jan 19, 2017

Ariel82 said:

I would tell them exactly as it is written and even mention acts and the letters to the epistles. I mean it's not a hard message to learn and its something that roughly 1 billion people on the earth have some sort of grasp on. People want to go deeper because they want it to be real to them. They want to see how God can work in their life in even through the grimmest of circumstances. They want the God that led the exodus and the God that saved men from evil. They want to see what it's like to walk by faith and not by sight. They just want what the disciples and apostles had back then, they want the fullness of the Holy Spirit and the gifts that come with it. The discernment and all that good stuff, the people crave it.

Thanks for the welcome.

PeterJens · Jan 19, 2017

[FONT=&quot]impurity, immorality and sensuality

A modern word for this would be hedonism, going after the passions of the flesh
as the passion takes you.

Paul says this is the old man, the way we used to live.

Those who preached [/FONT]antinomianism where moral law no longer applied, and
nothing you did effected your relationship with God, tendend to let their desires rip.

It is the opposite of purifying the heart, it is letting the heart and emotions flow as
you want, which is truly the form of pagan worship and orgies.

In Pauls day this was something the converts would have participated in in the past,
and was the general accepted behaviour.

This is the exact opposite of no hint of sexual immorality, purity, love, blamelessness,
gentleness, self control, sleeping at night and working during the day.

It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:3-8

Ariel82 · Jan 20, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Revelation 2
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Let's figure out these scriptures.

Ariel82 · Jan 20, 2017

Here are a couple articles I found on the scriptures

Pergamos: The Church at Satan's Throne

https://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/revelation/seven-churches-of-revelation/pergamos/

Ariel82 · Jan 20, 2017

https://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/prophets/false-prophets/balaam/

The “doctrine of Balaam” refers to this man’s misguided attempt to try to serve God while also fulfilling his own personal interests—which were counter to God’s—as ancient Israel marched towards Canaan (Numbers 22-24). The point is: God expects us to obey Him fully, with our whole hearts (Deuteronomy 6:5; Psalm 119:2; Matthew 22:37). To learn more about why Balaam’s conduct remained as an enduring example of how not to worship God, see the article “Balaam” on this website.

Grace777x70 · Jan 20, 2017

Balaam was also trying to curse what God had blessed.

PeterJens · Jan 20, 2017

If one is looking at the extreme of letting things go, you also need to look at purity,
and appropriate behaviour.

Evil desires do not arrive by themselves, they are part of the heart and its corruption
when love is locked out and hurt dominates.

If nothing matters for tomorrow we die, just let it rip, enjoy what you can, because
what are you holding back for.

Now this touches on emotions and what resolution of the heart actually is.
Some obviously believe emotions should not be touched but left locked up, and discipline
and constraint is the only way, a form of asceticism. Paul did not agree.

But speaking from personal experience locked away emotions feel like they will destroy
you if let out. Now this is not true, and it takes faith to let you feel your locked emotions
and stay safe. The spiritual reality, growth in your life with Christ needs this to happen.

It is the first step to finding out what purity actually looks like.

Let them Eat MEAT! Learning spiritual discernment: licentiousness

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