Let them Eat MEAT! Learning spiritual discernment: legalism

[Ariel82]

I am going to gather resources that I find helpful...

https://carm.org/what-is-legalism

Quoted from article:

In Christianity, legalism is the excessive and improper use of the law (10 commandments, holiness laws, etc). This legalism can take different forms. The first is where a person attempts to keep the Law in order to attain salvation. The second is where a person keeps the law in order to maintain his salvation. The third is when a Christian judges other Christians for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed

I accept this definition of legalism and suggest we look at the whole article. I will post points to help with quoting and discussion.

I suggest we start with the first type, then work through the other two later.

"The first kind of legalism is where the law of God is kept in order to attain salvation. This is a heresy, a completely false doctrine. We are not able to attain salvation by our keeping the law. Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” It is simply not possible to keep the Law enough to be saved. Therefore, to try and gain salvation through one’s efforts is a false teaching. It is so bad that those who hold to it cannot be Christians since it would deny salvation by grace through faith."

 

[zone]

Zone, you know being called a martyr might be considered a compliment by some?

Why is it so hard to talk about topics instead of people?

Read this whole thread and it quickly went at least ten different directions.

Been interesting to watch the conversational tidal waves.

However I feel like there is a thread I haven't read recently from the comments made...hmmm...

it's an interesting thread.
just like all the others.
ppl hold pretty much to their positions until one day, in some cases, a light goes on somewhere and they adapt.
same everywhere.

 

[Ariel82]

Just wondering on everyone's thoughts on the 1st type of legalism....do they agree it heresy or do some hold to some form of works based salvation?

Note: I don't care what you think others think,just what you yourself believe,

 

[Willie-T]

Oh, as far as convict being a trigger word, I can only try to stop using it. I've used it so long it is habit. It would be like trying to stop using the word and at this point... It's hard to teach an old dog new words.

Well, are you FEELING convicted as most of the people you are speaking to in the world would understand the word? I think this is really the most salient point to consider.... how we are portraying the Holy Spirit to others by the words we choose to use.

If you honestly do believe the Holy Spirit's job is to shame us, make us feel guilty, and, basically, condemn us, then convict is probably the word you should keep using.

Just stay cognizant of the fact that the word, 'convict' came from the 1500 translator's worldview of how they believed the Bible should be read, and not from what may have been originally conveyed in Aramaic and Greek.

 

[Ariel82]

con·vic·tion
kənˈvikSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
a formal declaration that someone is guilty of a criminal offense, made by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.
"she had a previous conviction for a similar offense"
synonyms: declaration of guilt, sentence, judgment
"his conviction for murder"
2.
a firmly held belief or opinion.
"his conviction that the death was no accident"
synonyms: belief, opinion, view, thought, persuasion, idea, position, stance, article of faith
"his political convictions"

Personally I think of the 2nd definition when I hear Holy Spirit and convict in the same sentence.

Like when a parent tells the kid, dont touch the pot its hot...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well, are you FEELING convicted as most of the people you are speaking to in the world would understand the word? I think this is really the most salient point to consider.... how we are portraying the Holy Spirit to others by the words we choose to use.

If you honestly do believe the Holy Spirit's job is to shame us, make us feel guilty, and, basically, condemn us, then convict is probably the word you should keep using.

Just stay cognizant of the fact that the word, 'convict' came from the 1500 translator's worldview of how they believed the Bible should be read, and not from what may have been originally conveyed in Aramaic and Greek.

Wow...is THAT what you were trying to say yesterday?? This is very wise. I'm going to look up in strongs.

 

[Willie-T]

Wow...is THAT what you were trying to say yesterday?? This is very wise. I'm going to look up in strongs.

You might want to go farther than just that, and read a dozen, or so, commentaries on what has come to be understood was being said about the Holy Spirit's role in that passage.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I've never read any commentaries. I think I tried to, like...ten years ago, but they didn't help me. I might take your suggestion sometime later, but I like to let the Spirit show me what He's going to first.

 

[OneFaith]

Hebrews 5
solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

What does the Bible say about legalism?

Jesus corrected those who put TRADITION before God's law. But He did not correct those who obeyed God's law and encouraged others to do the same. We are supposed to go by God's law (in the New Covenant). If you obey God and someone calls you leagalistic- that's like snarling while saying "You obeyer of God!"

Litsten, the Bible says some will abandon The Faith. It did not say just faith- which is belief in God, it said THE Faith- which is more specifically the belief and practice of the laws that Christ put into place when He established His Church. Since then many false doctrines/churches have branched off of the real one. And what does God say about them? "They worship Me in vain- their doctrine is merely human rules."

So there is man's rules/laws, and there is God's rules/laws (proper use of New Testament scripture). And it is by making sure that we go by His laws that makes our worship valid instead of in vain. It is a matter of eternal life and death. "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." We can't go by what we feel, we must do what the Bible actually says.

If someone said we should use pepsi and pizza for the Lord's Supper instead of bread without yeast (cracker) and pure fruit of the vine (grape juice), and I said no, and they called me legalistic because of it, so be it! I'm going to do what God says not what mankind says. It is when a doctrine is proven to be merely human rules, that people get defensive and call you legalistic.

 

[Stephen63]

I am going to gather resources that I find helpful...

https://carm.org/what-is-legalism

Quoted from article:

In Christianity, legalism is the excessive and improper use of the law (10 commandments, holiness laws, etc). This legalism can take different forms. The first is where a person attempts to keep the Law in order to attain salvation. The second is where a person keeps the law in order to maintain his salvation. The third is when a Christian judges other Christians for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed

Do you know how to determine when a post looks suspicious? Sometimes it's as easy as looking at who 'liked' it.

Matt Slick. Hmmmmm.....

Well, we wouldn't want any legalists coming in this thread & starting a fight. After all, this thread would have to be full of OSAS's & hypergracers working together to do something like that, right?

Y'all have a nice time using Matt Slick's teachings on eternal security & legalism.

Y'all know that birds of a feather flock together? Actually, I'm saying that to those readers who don't know they're being set up.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus drank wine, not just grape juice.

Evidence in scripture: at the wedding feast when he turned water into wine.

Yes we should learn God's laws but it's not what many claim.

Definitely not a debate of grape juice versus wine for communion,

 

[Ariel82]

Do you know how to determine when a post looks suspicious? Sometimes it's as easy as looking at who 'liked' it.

Matt Slick. Hmmmmm.....

Well, we wouldn't want any legalists coming in this thread & starting a fight. After all, this thread would have to be full of OSAS's & hypergracers to do something like that, right?

Y'all have a nice time using Matt Slick's teachings on eternal security & legalism.

Y'all know that birds of a feather flock together? Actually, I'm saying that to those readers who don't know they're being set up.

What in the world are you talking about?

Why are we talking people and not topics?

You have an article about legalism you want to examine?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We're not all birds of a feather. As I said, I am NOSAS (sort of).
And I'm definitely not of a feather with wilile. He disagrees with me on most things. In fact, he thinks I'm insane because of the study of Genesis I posted!

And Bruce and I aren't in solid agreement on a lot.

And peter and I are in more agreement than with just about any and they think he's nuts too.

Oh, now I am just laughing. Too tired to continue tonight. Goodnight all.

 

[Ariel82]

Found this article powerful.

Revelation 2:1-7

John, the apostle of love, had recorded in his gospel the words of Jesus when He said, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35). But the Ephesian Christians had lost the fervent devotion of their early Christian experience (cf. Jere. 2:2-5). The passion, the zeal, the intimacy had faded.

How does that happen? Perhaps the previous observation of verses two and three gives us the clue to why the Ephesian Christians are guilty as charged. Heresy-hunting can put you in a religious frame of mind very quickly. If you are constantly on the lookout for ideological falsehood, you usually become critical and suspicious. You are looking for heretical aberration under every bush (or idea). You set out on an inquisition, and everyone is a suspect. This can definitely kill your love for Christ and for one another. Enthusiasm for orthodoxy can dull all desire for intimacy with Jesus Christ and with others.

Then when you think you have developed good skills at this kind of doctrinal discernment, it breeds pride and arrogance. Religion boasts of having everything figured out. "We know what is right and what is wrong." "We can do this detective work." Success in discernment and perseverance can lead to an attitude of self-sufficiency and superiority. The "father of lies" (John 8:44) is so deceptive as he attempts to cause sincere, loving Christians to lapse into religion, which inevitably turns one's love to something or someone other than Jesus Christ, and those in whom Jesus lives, i.e. Christians. Religion will create a primary love for orthodoxy and correct doctrine, for good feelings and entertainment, for productivity and the success factors of buildings, budgets and baptisms, for prestige, position, and power. Religion will make you critical and suspicious and judgmental of others, even other Christians, because religion has lost any connection with the dynamic love of Jesus Christ.

 

[stonesoffire]

Just wondering on everyone's thoughts on the 1st type of legalism....do they agree it heresy or do some hold to some form of works based salvation?

Note: I don't care what you think others think,just what you yourself believe,

False, but I labored under the weight of trying to be good for too many years. I don't think we can talk too much about the grace extended to us.

 

[Willie-T]

Found this article powerful.

Revelation 2:1-7

Seems pretty accurate.

 

[Ariel82]

However i did find things in the article I didn't totally agree with.

It is thought provoking and something to take to God in prayer.

 

[Desertsrose]

Just wondering on everyone's thoughts on the 1st type of legalism....do they agree it heresy or do some hold to some form of works based salvation?

Note: I don't care what you think others think,just what you yourself believe,

Good evening, Ariel.

Before I answer, I want to say first that no I don't believe we work to receive salvation. And no we don't work to keep salvation.

My belief is that once we've been born from above, by grace through faith, faith works or it's not a genuine faith.

Hebrews 11 - Faith works.........

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “IN Isaac your descendants shall be called.” He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.

By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.

By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.

They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[Stephen63]

This may sound strange to some but to others it will ring true.

Back in 1997 I got dressed in my suit just for the purpose of going before the Lord in my bedroom to make what I called back then a "formal petition".

1997..... wasn't that the year Joseph Prince heard God speak to him about the Hyper-grace/radical grace? What a coincidence.

I asked the Lord to not let me get religious and that to do whatever it took to do this. I knew the insidious nature and danger of religion. I also knew that I was in it but I couldn't figure out what it was.

A long story short - I stopped going to a traditional church meetings and about 15 years later the Lord woke me up one morning and started to preach the gospel of the grace of God to me. I'll finish this in my next post as I wrote it down so I'll go get it.

When you say God woke you up & preached to you, did you mean He did thru someone on TV or radio?

 

[Desertsrose]

Just wondering on everyone's thoughts on the 1st type of legalism....do they agree it heresy or do some hold to some form of works based salvation?

Note: I don't care what you think others think,just what you yourself believe,

I wanted to add to the last post, but it's too late to edit

It's really all about love and obedience; I don't even think about the word works. If someone told me I had to do them to be saved and to hold on to my salvation, I would share with them what God's word says. But that about the only time I talk about works or good deeds.

I focus on loving God, loving others and living a life of obedience. Because Jesus said if we love Him, we'll obey Him. Like He loved Father and only did what the Father told Him, that's how I want to live my life. I want to live my life in obedience to His word.

Do I have to obey? It's more like because I have faith in my Lord and Savior and because I have a relationship with Him, that question doesn't even enter my mind. I don't fell like I have to obey, I feel like I want to obey. I want to. My wanter is changed. The old wanter's been removed and I've been given a new one. I want to.