Not By Works

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Feb 24, 2015
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No actually...
One side believes salvation is based UPON FAITH void of works
The side in error believes in salvation based upon faith PLUS works.......
The ongoing saga still unfolding for oh...say...2000 years.......
OH FOOLISH GALATIANS WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU....answer me this....HAVING begun in the SPIRIT are you now MADE COMPLETE BY the FLESH (WORKS)............!
Let me put this simply. It is easy for people to polarise a discussion, like
you did with "we" when most have a mixture of emphasises.
Like I would agree with most of your expression except eternal security.

And the way people talk and emphasis speaks louder than the content.

And antinomianism is the denial of the law of Christ. If a group removes the role
of the Holy Spirit, ones conscience or even oneself of acting against sin, one is
antinomian.

The real crux has always been can we really have purity of the heart.
It is like most journeys, you start because you are not there, and when you arrive
you understand it was not as difficult as you had first thought.

As soon as you compromise this, you are changing the whole faith and walk.
So the discussion has never been about works, but actually about our walk.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Brother, the FAITH-ONLY based believers will reject any teaching that teaches "Faith and Works" go hand in hand, even rejecting the very Scriptures that teaches that.
Yes they cannot be separated(impossible) .

The faith only, is based on Christ's finished work only, and not on any work we could do. There is nothing we could do to contribute to His finished work .Either it provides all the grace necessary to pay for every violation we commit against Him or there is no grace.

Getting Saved, only requires Faith and that is it.
Being Saved, requires us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, which IS Works.
You as it seems are adding to His finished work of faith.. Getting saved only requires the Faith of our Faithful creator. His faith is not without works. And that is it.

But like i said, the FAITH-ONLY based believers, will reject any teaching that includes any works. period. Blind they are, and the ditch is their destination.
The faith only that are saved by the "faith of Christ" means we will not be found with any righteousness of or own selves that could come from doing good works .Good works are the expected. But when we do deny Him in unbelief (no faith) He cannot deny He has paid the full eternal wage of any sin.

Second Timothy informs us of His faithfulness.

It is a faithful saying: For if we be "dead with him" we shall also "live with him": If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he “abideth faithful”: he cannot deny himself. 2Ti 2:11

Like David said in the Psalms. If He would take into account even one trespass, seeing if a person denies Christ in unbelief in the least, he is guilty of the whole law. Who then could stand before His throne of mercy and receive His gift of grace? We come as we are (guilty) falling short of His glory

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD. Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, “that thou mayest be feared”.I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope. My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning. Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Psa 130:1-8
All of His iniquities do not mean up until the last one five minutes ago and therefore Christ must be subjected to public shame as if one work of His faith as a labor of His Love was not enough to pay full wage(eternal) of sin.
Better things accompany salvation called redemption. Like a newly created spirit that will never die. And a new heart to give us a desire to His will as He works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure all the days of our lives..
The other option is clear; crucify him over and over again unto repentance every time a person violates one of His loving laws. He will not forget your work and labor of love, which we have shown toward his name they accompany His salvation.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Heb 6:4-10
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Let me put this simply. It is easy for people to polarise a discussion, like
you did with "we" when most have a mixture of emphasises.
Like I would agree with most of your expression except eternal security.

And the way people talk and emphasis speaks louder than the content.

And antinomianism is the denial of the law of Christ. If a group removes the role
of the Holy Spirit, ones conscience or even oneself of acting against sin, one is
antinomian.

The real crux has always been can we really have purity of the heart.
It is like most journeys, you start because you are not there, and when you arrive
you understand it was not as difficult as you had first thought.

As soon as you compromise this, you are changing the whole faith and walk.
So the discussion has never been about works, but actually about our walk.
And you would be wrong on the above bolded....

Whatsoever GOD does it is ETERNAL Ecclesiastes 3:14

We are born of incorruptible seed <---cannot be corrupted
We are saved by the perfect faith OF Christ <--HIS FAITH never falters or fails
We are justified by the perfect FAITH of CHRIST <---His righteousness has been applied and he TOOK ALL OUR SIN
We are sanctified by the perfect FAITH of CHRIST<--Positionally
WE are SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE<---SEAL cannot be broken refer to ECCLESIASTES 3:14 and WHATSOEVER
We are in the FATHER's HAND, in Christ's HAND and he will LOSE NOTHING that he has been given
HE started the good work in us and will FINISH
IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF
HE is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our FAITH
HE SAID ETERNAL or EVERLASTING LIFE<--IF it can be lost it is TEMPORAY and CONDITIONAL NOT ETERNAL
The BIBLE is replete with SAVED men who committed horrific acts BUT NEVER LOST SALVATION

I can go ALL day with truths and principles that teach eternal SECURITY........and to deny it is a position of error

END of STORY!
 
Feb 24, 2015
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And you would be wrong on the above bolded....
Ezek 18:21-25

This illustrates Gods approach to those who walk in His ways and those who walk away.

All promises are true if you stay in relationship, because the promise is based on
communion, not ownership.

I could argue, that once you see the Lord in reality, in an open heart you will not
walk away, but that is always a generalisation.

But for me the whole point is, why do people need this sealing without release?
Because of doubt and things not quite working out.

But the cross and God dying for us is our seal. There is no greater statement of
Gods love and intention than this.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Ezek 18:21-25

This illustrates Gods approach to those who walk in His ways and those who walk away.

All promises are true if you stay in relationship, because the promise is based on
communion, not ownership.

I could argue, that once you see the Lord in reality, in an open heart you will not
walk away, but that is always a generalisation.

But for me the whole point is, why do people need this sealing without release?
Because of doubt and things not quite working out.

But the cross and God dying for us is our seal. There is no greater statement of
Gods love and intention than this.
Wrong.....and what does Ezekiel have to do with the NEW covenant found in CHRIST?....I am not under the CONDENATION of the LAW.....

IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Wrong.....and what does Ezekiel have to do with the NEW covenant found in CHRIST?....I am not under the CONDENATION of the LAW.....

IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF
This is probably the bigger difference.
Christ is the atoning sacrifice in the temple that tore down the curtain.

It changed our access and how we commune with God, but it has not changed the problem
of sin, and resolution.

Your response demonstrates the problem. You feel Jesus is a new faith, rather than
this is the revelation of the faith implicit in Moses law, and the prophets.

It also demonstrates that lists of theological statements sometimes do not capture
the shades of emphasis.

Like the idea "wrong" You are not addressing the point about walking righteously and
walking in sin, and how the Lord reacts to this.

Purity and righteousness matter, it is not something we can disregard and say we
are Holy Temples of the Holy Spirit. These are not minor points or things one
can ignore, it is integral with Jesus, the cross and salvation.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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This is probably the bigger difference.
Christ is the atoning sacrifice in the temple that tore down the curtain.

It changed our access and how we commune with God, but it has not changed the problem
of sin, and resolution.

Your response demonstrates the problem. You feel Jesus is a new faith
, rather than
this is the revelation of the faith implicit in Moses law, and the prophets.

It also demonstrates that lists of theological statements sometimes do not capture
the shades of emphasis.

Like the idea "wrong" You are not addressing the point about walking righteously and
walking in sin, and how the Lord reacts to this.

Purity and righteousness matter, it is not something we can disregard and say we
are Holy Temples of the Holy Spirit. These are not minor points or things one
can ignore, it is integral with Jesus, the cross and salvation.
The above illustrates that..
a) You don't read very well or are blind
b) You attribute things not aid nor implied
c) You reject the N.T. while holding to delusion ideas about what others say

I said...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Wrong.....and what does Ezekiel have to do with the NEW covenant found in CHRIST?....I am not under the CONDENATION of the LAW.....

IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF

The bolded are both NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES and what you imply is not said nor implied in what I said.....I highly recommend that you learn to read and understand ENGLISH before you continue in the BIBLE CHAT.....not being mean, just saying that if you cannot understand or properly interpret and or attribute N.T. theology you will be missing much!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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The above illustrates that..
a) You don't read very well or are blind
b) You attribute things not aid nor implied
c) You reject the N.T. while holding to delusion ideas about what others say

I said...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Wrong.....and what does Ezekiel have to do with the NEW covenant found in CHRIST?....I am not under the CONDENATION of the LAW.....

IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF

The bolded are both NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES and what you imply is not said nor implied in what I said.....I highly recommend that you learn to read and understand ENGLISH before you continue in the BIBLE CHAT.....not being mean, just saying that if you cannot understand or properly interpret and or attribute N.T. theology you will be missing much!
I have thought the same thing many times.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I have thought the same thing many times.
I have never seen one as bad as him to attribute things not said nor implied....well.....some close to it....shakes head while wondering how someone can fly the English Jack and not understand English!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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it's been my experience that some people want their beliefs repeated back to them, and then they get upset when they hear something different.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
And you would be wrong on the above bolded....

Whatsoever GOD does it is ETERNAL Ecclesiastes 3:14

We are born of incorruptible seed <---cannot be corrupted
We are saved by the perfect faith OF Christ <--HIS FAITH never falters or fails
We are justified by the perfect FAITH of CHRIST <---His righteousness has been applied and he TOOK ALL OUR SIN
We are sanctified by the perfect FAITH of CHRIST<--Positionally
WE are SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE<---SEAL cannot be broken refer to ECCLESIASTES 3:14 and WHATSOEVER
We are in the FATHER's HAND, in Christ's HAND and he will LOSE NOTHING that he has been given
HE started the good work in us and will FINISH
IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF
HE is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our FAITH
HE SAID ETERNAL or EVERLASTING LIFE<--IF it can be lost it is TEMPORAY and CONDITIONAL NOT ETERNAL
The BIBLE is replete with SAVED men who committed horrific acts BUT NEVER LOST SALVATION

I can go ALL day with truths and principles that teach eternal SECURITY........and to deny it is a position of error

END of STORY!
I wonder when this thought that God can not finish what he started. That God can not keep his promises. That God can not do ANYTHING without our help..

Has to be from satan, where else could it come from?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I wonder when this thought that God can not finish what he started. That God can not keep his promises. That God can not do ANYTHING without our help..

Has to be from satan, where else could it come from?
Exactly and or the minds of lost men........
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The above illustrates that..
a) You don't read very well or are blind
b) You attribute things not aid nor implied
c) You reject the N.T. while holding to delusion ideas about what others say

I said...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Wrong.....and what does Ezekiel have to do with the NEW covenant found in CHRIST?....I am not under the CONDENATION of the LAW.....

IF we believe not after SALVATION HE ABIDES FAITHFUL for he cannot deny HIMSELF

The bolded are both NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES and what you imply is not said nor implied in what I said.....I highly recommend that you learn to read and understand ENGLISH before you continue in the BIBLE CHAT.....not being mean, just saying that if you cannot understand or properly interpret and or attribute N.T. theology you will be missing much!
He does not get the facts.

1. Jesus fulfilled the law
2. The reason the veil was torn in tow was because Jesus TOOK CARE OF THE PROBLEM OF SIN, and his DEATH WAS THE SOLUTION.


the reason we have access to God, an no longer have to go through a high priest trhough extreme ritual is because the "PROBLEM OF SIN WAS REMOVED"

These people do not understand what the cross did. nor do they have any faith in it.. Or else they would nto make such GRACE error..
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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He does not get the facts.

1. Jesus fulfilled the law
2. The reason the veil was torn in tow was because Jesus TOOK CARE OF THE PROBLEM OF SIN, and his DEATH WAS THE SOLUTION.


the reason we have access to God, an no longer have to go through a high priest trhough extreme ritual is because the "PROBLEM OF SIN WAS REMOVED"

These people do not understand what the cross did. nor do they have any faith in it.. Or else they would nto make such GRACE error..
Oh I agree.....We now have a high Priest at the right hand of the Heavenly Father making intercession continually on our behalf....HENCE...where sin abounds...grace did much more abound.....!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have never seen one as bad as him to attribute things not said nor implied....well.....some close to it....shakes head while wondering how someone can fly the English Jack and not understand English!
he is one of the few I have ever heard who thinks we not only need to bow down to what he thinks the bible says, But also to what he thinks WE SAY.

He rejects that we have the right to defend our beliefs, and our faith.. He has the right to tell us what we believe and what our faith is, and how DARE we have the GULL to tell him he is wrong.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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it's been my experience that some people want their beliefs repeated back to them, and then they get upset when they hear something different.
Its my belief that some will not except other people beliefs because there all words and no action.

Words without action is like faith without works. This is a lazy mentality some people would rather sit down and write a whole chapter befor they cook or do the house cleaning, where as some people would like manual labour others hate getting there hands dirty and would rather get an office Job.
This is my belief that same mentality exists in christianity some people like to do more for humanity than others and some are called some are not.

but this does not mean that the ones who are not called are any more worthy than those who are.
In my opinion the faith and works argument is nothing more than an argument about some ones excuse not to do there daily chores and some ones jelousy of those that do there daily choirs or someones jelousy of someone who does more important works than they do........... period end of story :rolleyes: chuckle chuckle
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh I agree.....We now have a high Priest at the right hand of the Heavenly Father making intercession continually on our behalf....HENCE...where sin abounds...grace did much more abound.....!

Imagine how bad it is, How can on look at the law and see how desperate the human condition was.

God was relegated to an inner closet in and tabernacle or temple system. and the ONLY way man could be in his presence was that he had to be one man. Had to be a high priest. And he had to do these very set rules and ceremonies to make himself clean. And if he did not do everyone 100 % perfect. he was killed the moment he entered. They had to tie a rope to them, in case the body died, so it would not make the inner room unclean..

yet the workers who say the cross is nto enough. WHAT?? they need to study the law.. and realize what it represented..

How can I, a person, who is not a priest Enter the presence of God. when the righteous men of the OT could not..

The penalty of sin is removed, the barrier between God and man, the veil which seperates us, is removed.