Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

[shittim]

Dreams and visions, I have been through periods where dreams have been given for quite a period of weeks and months. He will
always stretch us and grow us to be conformed to the image of His son.
Ask for dreams, His are different than the ones we get from the late night pizza, or our own mind.
In my experience His are very clear, very lucid, ask Him what they mean, Daniel tells us to go back to the
giver of dreams for the interpretation.
I have seen legs lengthened, the last time I was the one who prayed for it, after being prompted by the Spirit to pray for the person.

 

[presidente]

It would seem you saw a lying sign and wonder.Satan is still allowed to break the silence . Seeing God is no longer bringing any new revelations to confirm a sign and wonder as he did for the one purpose of using them to preach the gospel in advance. Not as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit.

How incredibly foolish of you. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says God won't do signs and wonders. And even the most unbelieving cessationist who claims to believe the Bible should acknowledge that God could grow a limb back in response to prayer.

A real concern here is that when Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and His opponents said He did it by Beelzebub, he told them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things.

Not one miracle was performed that was not used as a parable in respect to some aspect of the gospel .

You are not grasping the straightforward stuff, so you don't need to be delving into allegorical interpretation.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:9

Why would you think that if a limb grew out, the poster who saw it must have seen the man of sin in action. There is a lot more in the Bible about men of God healing through the gifts of God than there is about the man of sin.

 

[presidente]

The gifts of the Spirit are still here, I believe that Christians operate in these gifts sometimes without really thinking about it. A Baptist Pastor I knew told me the story of how he was trying to counsel a your married man at the request of his wife. He said that the guy was going nuts and he could not understand why when the Lord spoke to him and said, he is a homosexual and has recently been involved in it. That was a word of knowledge given by the Spirit in order to help the individual. When he spoke this to the man he admitted it and the Pastor was able to talk to him.

It's funny when sometimes people who make cessationist arguments operate in gifts they aren't supposed to believe in. They say Spurgeon looked at people and told them specific details about their lives when preaching at times. Paul Washer has a couple of testimonies that sure sound like words of knowledge to me, though he allegedly described himself as a cessationist a few years ago.

 

[shittim]

Interesting, very interesting, as though His plan to redeem man will go forward whether we
will take the blessed opportunity to be a part of it, or not.
Which is the case , of course.

 

[notuptome]

How incredibly foolish of you. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that says God won't do signs and wonders. And even the most unbelieving cessationist who claims to believe the Bible should acknowledge that God could grow a limb back in response to prayer.

A real concern here is that when Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and His opponents said He did it by Beelzebub, he told them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things.

Why would you think that if a limb grew out, the poster who saw it must have seen the man of sin in action. There is a lot more in the Bible about men of God healing through the gifts of God than there is about the man of sin.

Never a good idea to endeavor to tell God what He must do or what He cannot do. The malefactor on the cross next to Christ endeavored to manipulate Jesus to do something He could do but was against the purpose and plan of God.

You can neither force God to do something or prevent God from doing something if God has determined to do or not to do. We can only rely upon the word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit to know which is which in any given situation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

I have pointed out that the scriptures teach that the Spirit gives these gifts to individuals in the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. Why don't you believe what the scripture says about this topic?

As the Spirit wills a person to do a work outwardly to prove they have the Spirit of Christ? Sounds like glorying in the flesh to me.

The passage I have referred you to, I Corinthians 12, talks about the manifestation of the Spirit. Why would you athink those who operate in the gifts referred to in that passage are glorying in the flesh? The Bible says they are manifestations of the Spirit. Why are you so confused? And why accusing them of 'glorying'? And why assume that the members of the body of Christ function in these gifts to outwardly prove they have the Spirit? Why attribute that motivation to them? Is that how you think? Are you projecting your own motivations onto other people? Can't you concieve of someone using spiritual gifts to edify others and to glorify God?

 

[HEIsRiSen]

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

Are we not Spirit filled like they were or is it from lack of faith, prayer, or fasting?

I believe we experience some miracles but nothing like they did.

The church nowadays is watered down and divided. They are full of a bunch of Sunday Christians and luke-warm believers.

I am not trying to be the accuser here, just making a statement. I believe that one cannot deny the above statement completely either.

Like somebody else said though we can see little miracles everyday if we have our eyes open.

 

[shittim]

They were of one accord, that is one difference I see.
True, most congregations are divided for different reasons, what I see
is is the difference between those of the outward form, who know about G-d, but are not in relationship,
personal relationship. vital, personal, relationship with Him, from the time we get up, all day, to the end of the day and are still
in relationship as He comes with dreams to further grow us in Him.

 

[MattTooFor]

Why would your assumptions be authoritative like the scripturs? Why would you believe in our assumptions instead of what God has revealed?

You're "assuming" my assumptions are in conflict with scripture. I assume I am understanding the scriptures correctly.

Why would you believe in our assumptions instead of what God has revealed?

You're begging the question as to whether you yourself correctly understand "what God has revealed".

If the perfectection Paul wrote of had come, Christians would not be in disagreement on this matter.

So...before the "perfect" came, Christians WOULD be in disagreement of this matter??

Well, they weren't. So you've obviously misinterpreted the statement about "perfect".


Christians ALREADY WERE in unanimous agreement regarding the sign gifts in the early days of Christianity. There was ZERO controversy back then because there was a deluge of miraculous indications. Modern-day Pentecostals are "mystified" over why their Johnny-come-lately doctrines have now indeed caused controversy.

There was ZERO 'common belief' in the existence of these miraculous manifestations up until 1905, except for among the (satanically originated, demonically-energized) "Mormons"...some rather awkward bedfellows for Pentecostals, I would say.


If these gifts were still in operation, we would see them commonly practiced as they were in Corinth. There should be regular and even frequent manifestations right here at the Christian Chat fellowship. The Pentecostals should be treating each other to the wonderful blessings of prophecy.


Instead, Christian Chat is Exhibit A as proof these things are no longer happening. Your own hemming and hawing and foot-shuffling response when I ask you to get one of your friends to demonstrate "prophecy"...is further proof. The whole idea behind such gifts was...as a confirming demonstration of the validity of God and His Word. I shouldn't even have to ask. These things should already be going on here at Christian Chat. None of you right here are demonstrating these things.

You need to stop lecturing and start doing. Yak, yak, yak. On and on. As they say among the ranchers here in California: "All hat and no horse".

 

[RickyZ]

Its an interesting testimony. How many then turned to Christ? In the bible we can find no example that God gave miracles to have fun! The purpose was that people see that Jesus is the Christ the son of God and also that the apostles are sent from God too. We dont know how miracles looks like which mentioned as gift in 1. Corinthians. But as all gifts I supposed the gift was too given for build up the church. That god gives us as his children prayer answers and also encouragments for our personal relationship I believe too. But that is no proof, that today we have the same miracles which the apostles did. Again show me the meetings where all sick people got healed immediatly. In the world press we dont find reports of mass healings and miracles. (I speak in first line for Germany)
My expieriences with charismatics till today were that they split churches and claim to be better equipped because they have the second baptism with the Holy Spirit and can speak in tongues. For me no proof that they are rigth, in opposite I ask what Spiritis behind this doctrine?
Charles Fox Parham was the first who claimed this doctrine as right. Salvation, Sanctification and baptised with the Holy Spirit with the proof to speak in tongues as a continue gift. Till today of course the movement splittet in many directions and also the charismatics came along in several waves.
But the doctrine from be baptised with the Holy Spirit and the proof for that the gift of speaking in tongues came from Parham. Was he rigth ore wrong? His assumption that the gift of speaking in tongues would be continue for world mission later was shown as wrong and many missionarys came back home disappointet. And they changed the gift of speaking in tongues as a gift for personal edification. There is no scripture proof for this doctrine which Parham foundet. So which Spirit is behind this movement? Why teh Holy Spirit let him in a false assupmtion according the gift of speaking in tongues? How the Holy Spirit can reveal a doctrine which says that a christian needs the baptising with speaking in tongues, and on the other side Paul could say that not all christians getting the gift of speaking in tongues? These two doctrines are not fit togehter! Whom to believe? Parham ore Paul (the word of God)?

My impression is that there was something going on with the kid I ended up talking to, and that God stepped in to use the situation to provide some kind of witness to him. Having fun was just an added benefit! But you are right, all gifts/miracles should in the end glorify Him. That is one of the spiritual tests. And in the end, God's glory was confirmed/shown both to me and the kid.

And again, forget your focus on charismatic/pentecostal thing. I do believe they are the reason God gave us 1 Cor 14.

 

[RickyZ]

. Tongues are a sign for the unbelievers (not for good) .

The Bible also says that tongues edify the speaker.

You get into trouble when you try to pin your full understanding on only one scripture. You have to take them all as a whole.

 

[shittim]

"There should be regular and even frequent manifestations right here at the Christian Chat fellowship. "
Telling G-d how and what He should do is wrong. You are not in accord with Christ when you make that statement.
That may be one of the ways you have removed yourself from what He would have you participate in. We all find Him in humility, submission, and contrition, not in pride, arrogance, self righteousness.
Those in relationship are indeed seeing these things, and can and will share with His own.
If anyone makes themselves available to grow in this He will indeed work through them to.
He is G-d, we are not. His gifts are for His people.

 

[popeye]

You're "assuming" my assumptions are in conflict with scripture. I assume I am understanding the scriptures correctly.

You're begging the question as to whether you yourself correctly understand "what God has revealed".

So...before the "perfect" came, Christians WOULD be in disagreement of this matter??

Well, they weren't. So you've obviously misinterpreted the statement about "perfect".


Christians ALREADY WERE in unanimous agreement regarding the sign gifts in the early days of Christianity. There was ZERO controversy back then because there was a deluge of miraculous indications. Modern-day Pentecostals are "mystified" over why their Johnny-come-lately doctrines have now indeed caused controversy.

There was ZERO 'common belief' in the existence of these miraculous manifestations up until 1905, except for among the (satanically originated, demonically-energized) "Mormons"...some rather awkward bedfellows for Pentecostals, I would say.


If these gifts were still in operation, we would see them commonly practiced as they were in Corinth. There should be regular and even frequent manifestations right here at the Christian Chat fellowship. The Pentecostals should be treating each other to the wonderful blessings of prophecy.


Instead, Christian Chat is Exhibit A as proof these things are no longer happening. Your own hemming and hawing and foot-shuffling response when I ask you to get one of your friends to demonstrate "prophecy"...is further proof. The whole idea behind such gifts was...as a confirming demonstration of the validity of God and His Word. I shouldn't even have to ask. These things should already be going on here at Christian Chat. None of you right here are demonstrating these things.

You need to stop lecturing and start doing. Yak, yak, yak. On and on. As they say among the ranchers here in California: "All hat and no horse".

The gifts are operated in under the anointing.

They are manifest regularly. Just not within who you hang around with.

It is the same Jesus. He still has power.

The prophetic is tied to the miraculous.

That is mat 18;18.
The example is the lame man at the beautiful gate.
They prophesied his healing to him 2 seconds before it happened.

Try it sometime. Jesus established it. Your busy trying to convince us it vanished. IOW,prophesying that it can not be.
And,of course,you do not have it ,do you?

Amazing,the power you are seeing. You are using the same power of your words to block Jesus' words.

Hmmmmm

 

[RickyZ]

Great one Ricky, yes , the Word of Knowledge first. Thank you
That is normal Christianity, the Book of Acts is normal Christianity,
we have missed it, generally, for 1900+ years, but He wants His church back,
with signs and wonders.
I have seen Him calm the storm in response to a word of knowledge
followed by prayer.

That's true. I used to hike a hill that at the top gave me a view of the entire San Fernando Valley. During the last severe drought I was overlooking the valley when I was moved to pray for rain (I sensed that I was being called to join a chorus of such prayers). Lo and behold, a few days later it rained. And rained. And rained. For weeks. Then once everything was saturated and things were starting to flood and slide, it was forecast that the biggest storm of them all was headed straight for us, promising lots of destruction. I hiked to the top of the hill again, where I was moved to pray the storm be stopped (again with the feeling that I was just one in a group being led to do so). The storm split in half with half of it passing south of us and half of it passing north of us.

The only reason people don't see apostle - like miracles anymore is because they don't believe in them!

 

[RickyZ]

The gifts of the Spirit are still here, I believe that Christians operate in these gifts sometimes without really thinking about it.

That's very true, not every miracle or gift is a blatant earth moving event. Ifa 'cessationist' is a part of or witness to a miraculous healing, then s/he haswitnessed a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. So the question is why does s/henot recognize or acknowledge it as a gift of the Spirit? I think a lot of ithas to do with image. The 'working of the gifts' has been hijacked by thebabble and act stupid crowd, and they don't want to be associated with that.And I can't blame them. I'm a functionalist, and I don't want to associate withthem either. But yeah, I've known 'cessationists' who have been given/witnesseda gift of the Spirit, and turned right around and said that wasn't what Paulwas talking about.

But oh yes, it was.

 

[RickyZ]

A real concern here is that when Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and His opponents said He did it by Beelzebub, he told them that whoever spoke a word against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. So you should be extremely careful with your comments and stop being so reckless with spiritual things.

This is the one thing that makes cessationism so dangerous. If the Holy Spirit works a bonafide gift and someone denies it is of God, then by implication they attribute it to satan. And we all know what that does.

 

[shittim]

A couple years ago I saw a large potentially damaging storm coming, was called into prayer for my community, turned on the internet radar and watched it split and go around us, several months later at the local Bible camp annual hay rack ride rain was coming, within minutes, pastor's had their smart phones on the weather radar saying "it looks like this will be a short ride this year", G-d popped the picture in my mind of the previous event, I called out to all of us to pray which we did, within 2 minutes the storm parted around us with blue sky overhead. There was another time He chose to honor this prayer, again we watched the storm part and go around us. Indeed , "we have not because we ask not, we ask and receive not because we ask amiss".
The video Rev. David Barton and Michelle Bachman made concerning this last election showed the Hand of G-d in the election.
Thank you Ricky

 

[RickyZ]

"There should be regular and even frequent manifestations right here at the Christian Chat fellowship. "
Telling G-d how and what He should do is wrong. You are not in accord with Christ when you make that statement.
That may be one of the ways you have removed yourself from what He would have you participate in. We all find Him in humility, submission, and contrition, not in pride, arrogance, self righteousness.
Those in relationship are indeed seeing these things, and can and will share with His own.
If anyone makes themselves available to grow in this He will indeed work through them to.
He is G-d, we are not. His gifts are for His people.

Exactly. Jesus said the things He did, we would do even greater ones. He didn't say we would ask Him to do them, He said in His Name WE will do them.

It's a partnership. Without Him we are powerless. But He wants our partnership in bringing His will to bear on this world.

I always likened it to a Sherriff and his deputies. The Sherriff holds the power, but he doesn't patrol the streets looking for perps. He delegates that authority to his deputies, who do patrol the streets. The deputies have no authority of their own, other than that which the Sherriff gives them to enforce. But without the deputies, the Sherriff's powers remain unused.

 

[RickyZ]

A couple years ago I saw a large potentially damaging storm coming, was called into prayer for my community, turned on the internet radar and watched it split and go around us, several months later at the local Bible camp annual hay rack ride rain was coming, within minutes, pastor's had their smart phones on the weather radar saying "it looks like this will be a short ride this year", G-d popped the picture in my mind of the previous event, I called out to all of us to pray which we did, within 2 minutes the storm parted around us with blue sky overhead. There was another time He chose to honor this prayer, again we watched the storm part and go around us. Indeed , "we have not because we ask not, we ask and receive not because we ask amiss".
The video Rev. David Barton and Michelle Bachman made concerning this last election showed the Hand of G-d in the election.
Thank you Ricky

It reminds me of a story about a congregation that called a special prayer meeting to pray for an end to their drought. But of everyone who attended, only one kid brought an umbrella.

If you have the faith of the apostles, then you will see apostolic miracles.

 

[shittim]

It has been a great help to me to keep a still small voice of praise, gratitude, communication,
to and with Him, 90% of prayer should be listening for Him. That is what "praying without ceasing"
means to me and I know He responds when I do. The more we do it, the easier it is.
We grow in Him, we don't "arrive" at salvation and just rest.
The Apostles reached a point where the sick would be laid out close enough to Peter that his shadow might
fall on them and they be made whole, the Spirit oozed out of him.
If you have been called to pray for the waves you have been trained in that area, He will call on you again in that manner
to intercede according to His Will.
Bless you and all who are in your life.