Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 28, 2017

Is the belief in the concept once saved, always saved biblical? So for example if a Christian one day has a bad event in life and blames God to the point he feels their is no God and decides to live as he wants. Is the person still saved. Since God calls his people the elect.

But James warns us to be [h=1]James 1:22-25Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]22 But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face[a] in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does good works—this person will be blessed in what he does.

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[h=1]James 2:26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

To me it seems we must be doers and let the light of God show through our lives or else our faith is dead.

But yet we have these scriptures speaking on the elect and predestination.

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[h=1]Matthew 22:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen"

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[h=1]Matthew 24:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[a] survive.[b] But those days will be limited because of the elect.[/FONT]
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[h=1]Luke 18:7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]7 Will not God grant justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He delay to help them?[a]

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[h=1]John 13:18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]18 I’m not speaking about all of you; I know those I have chosen.But the Scripture must be fulfilled: The one who eats My bread[a]has raised his heel against Me

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[h=1]John 15:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Acts 2:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]23 Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used[a] lawless people[b] to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 8:29-30Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

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[h=1]Romans 9:11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand—

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[h=1]Ephesians 1:4-5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.[a] In love[b] 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,

[/FONT]
[h=1]1 Peter 1:1-2Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Greeting[/h][FONT=&quot]1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To the temporary residents dispersed[a] in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

So my questions are....

We see the words foreknowledge, chosen, elect, predestined, foreknew, and determined plan.
I am confused if Jesus died for all of mankind past, present, and future how can some be chosen over others and if active Christians are the chosen then does this mean once saved, always saved is biblical? Does this mean if a Christian falls away from Faith he was never truly chosen? Does this indicate the Devil has children as well predestined to be evil?

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[h=1]1 John 3:9-10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[a] because His[b] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[c] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.[/FONT]

Blain · Jan 28, 2017

You ask a hard and difficult yet very important question. This is a subject that I have yet to find a refutable answer to because people who oppose what I believe are very good at countering it becomes an endless argument but I will say my piece and you can take what you wish of it.

You know the parable of the prodigal son yes? what do you think meaning of this parable is? To me it speaks of a child of his that lost his way who once was saved but become to distracted by the things of the world and wandered however upon returning to the fathers arms was welcome with love and joy the father was so overjoyed because he came back.

This is the kind of father I see in God I see a love that goes beyond comprehension I believe Jesus would have gone through all he did a thousand times over for just one lost soul no matter how evil no matter how blood stained their souls because that is the kind of love I saw in him. Jesus said he didn't come for the healthy he came for the sick and he died for all people both good and bad so he must have seen something in even the worst of people worth fighting for worth suffering for and worth dying for.

For predestination to be true that would mean that he predestined certain people to hell no matter what they did and if this is true then why even bother? Why send the only son he had to die if it was only for a select group? This is not what love is. Love is willing to go the extreme of extremes for the sake of even one lost soul at least that is the love he filled in me and such a fiery love for others never existed in me until I met him. If there is even a .000001 percent chance a person can be saved I will never give up them I will without hesitation burn in the very fires of hell itself for a time so that they might be able to be saved and come to know him and have the kind of bond and love I have with him.

The reason I don't believe in predestination is because of how far I am willing to go for the sake of only one lost soul no matter how evil they are no matter how cold their hearts or how blood stained their souls. A love such as that the willingness to go that far isn't human. If God's love is truly as vast and deep as people claim ask yourself how far do you think he is willing to go to hold every lost child in his arms?

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 28, 2017

Blain said:

What you say is how I currently believe but everything I studied above and posted has only questioned my beliefs. The prodigal son could be taken as God (father) loves his children always. But his children out of free will can choose to leave him and go their own way. God the loving father will always love that child but he can't force his child to love him. So if the child was to die in his rebellion and free will then the father who is also just must deal with the sins because no mediator (Christ) is in place. Now like the story if the fathers child returns. The child's father never stopped loving him and only missed his child's presence and completely forgetting the child's sins.

But then if you believe in once saved, always saved, elect, and chosen. Then the child could never fall back into his old self before Christ. And therefore never lose his slot in the book of life

88 · Jan 28, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Is the belief in the concept once saved, always saved biblical? So for example if a Christian one day has a bad event in life and blames God to the point he feels their is no God and decides to live as he wants. Is the person still saved. Since God calls his people the elect.

But James warns us to be James 1:22-25Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

22 But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face[a] in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but one who does good works—this person will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

To me it seems we must be doers and let the light of God show through our lives or else our faith is dead.

But yet we have these scriptures speaking on the elect and predestination.

Matthew 22:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen"

Matthew 24:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

22 Unless those days were limited, no one would[a] survive.[b] But those days will be limited because of the elect.

Luke 18:7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

7 Will not God grant justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He delay to help them?[a]

John 13:18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

18 I’m not speaking about all of you; I know those I have chosen.But the Scripture must be fulfilled: The one who eats My bread[a]has raised his heel against Me

John 15:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

Acts 2:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used[a] lawless people[b] to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

Romans 8:29-30Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 9:11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand—

Ephesians 1:4-5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.[a] In love[b] 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,

1 Peter 1:1-2Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Greeting

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ:
To the temporary residents dispersed[a] in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ.
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

So my questions are....

We see the words foreknowledge, chosen, elect, predestined, foreknew, and determined plan.
I am confused if Jesus died for all of mankind past, present, and future how can some be chosen over others and if active Christians are the chosen then does this mean once saved, always saved is biblical? Does this mean if a Christian falls away from Faith he was never truly chosen? Does this indicate the Devil has children as well predestined to be evil?

1 John 3:9-10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin,[a] because His[b] seed remains in him; he is not able to sin,[c] because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.

***** God's foreknowledge doesn' t interfere with our free will---- we are not predestined to be saved or lost----we are predestined to be conformed to Christ---- God has a special plan for each life---- we must choose it-----I believe we can lose our salvation---- it is difficult to do--- but we have free wills---we can turn away from God will full you---- choose to follow Christ fully----- you won't worry about your salvation ---- but you will be concerned about others...

Blain · Jan 28, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Scripture alone does us no good if we don't also take into account of who God is. I have more than once begged him to take my free will I wanted to become his puppet but he taught me he treasures a willing child not a controlled one.In heaven before he even created the earth I can only imagine what it is was like for him, he had wealth and power he had his glory and even his angels but it seems that he knew what his heart wanted and that was children that he could share a very deep love with of their own free will.

If you force someone to love you it's not really love is it? I believe he has predestined many things he knows this story from beginning to end in his eyes it has already happened but I think when it comes to salvation he allowed free will to decide a persons destiny. In all honesty we may never understand if he simply makes it where he doesn't already who will choose him or if he does because that is the major flaw in the logic of free will. If he is all knowing and knows what will happen far before it ever does then why do we have free will? and does that mean predestination is true? But as I said I do not have an in refutable answer because I do not have the insight and understanding for an absolute answer but I know what my heart tells me I know what I have come to know of him and I have seen all throughout scripture how he never gives up on us even though we have messed up way beyond belief.

The cost however of allowing free will means that some will choose not to be embraced by his arms, believe me you cannot even begin to imagine the heartache he feels inside when his creation is sent to hell I mean a human parent losing a child feels pain and sadness grief and a deep inner cut in their hearts that words cannot describe and no one can ever understand that kind of pain and the kind of tears and the shattering of ones soul from losing a child. Him being the very first parent who took such great care in creating each and every one of us n the womb to the very last detail even to the single hairs on our heads and his love for his children his creations being far deeper and stronger than any parent on earth.... that kind of pain is worse than hell.

The deeper the love the deeper the pain when you lose a loved one. I cannot fully prove or disprove predestination but when i consider these things..... I can only weep for him

Ahwatukee · Jan 28, 2017

88 said:

Hello 88,

It is God who chose those whom He wanted to save and that not based on anything that we have done or will do, but by God's sovereign selection. Consider the following:

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

=====================================

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

[FONT=&quot]What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,[/FONT]“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

====================================

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

===================================

Regarding the above scripture demonstrates that everyone that God selected, their names were written in the book of life before the world began and that there were names that were not written. However, those whose names that were written must still have faith and remain in that faith. According to what Jesus said, it is possible for names to be blotted out of the book of life.

"Like them, the one who is victorious will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

Regarding the above, the promise of not blotting an indiviuals name out of the book of life, is to the believer who is victorious. Therefore it would be the opposite for those who are not victorious.

Depleted · Jan 28, 2017

Not again! Go to the bottom of this page and pick any one of the referenced thread. This same ole same ole was beaten to death the first year I was on this site. There is nothing new to add to it. Do the research instead of trying to revive the dead and beaten horse.

Ahwatukee · Jan 28, 2017

Depleted said:

Hello Depleted,

I've done the research, many times and salvation is not left in the hands of men. Scripture makes it perfectly clear that it is God who is the one who has chosen whom he wants to save. And His choosing is not based on looking ahead in the future based on who would believe and who wouldn't. Those whom God chose, their names were written in the book of life before the world began. For those whom God foreknew he predestined and those He predestined He called and those He called He justified and glorified.

You have to remember that all people are guilty of sin and are therefore deserving of death. No one is worthy or entitled to salvation. But God in His mercy and grace provided salvation through the death of His Son and He did the choosing. The words "chosen" and "elect" demonstrate God's sovereign choice.

As far as "beating a dead horse" most of the topics on this site have been beaten to death.

lastofall · Jan 28, 2017

[for me anyway] it is a matter of us learning to not think above that which is written, so that we keep ourselves away from exaggeration and over-estimation; such as the phrase of your topic, which is above that which is written: for me anyway I will have "the hope of salvation", but I would never say "I know that I am saved", for if we know, then we have no more need for hope; yet scripture tells us all the time to hope; so which is not above that which is written, and which is above that which is written "hope" or "I know"? for knowing and hoping are two different things.

Ahwatukee · Jan 28, 2017

lastofall said:

Hello lastofall,

But it is written. I don't proclaim anything that isn't stated in scripture. Take the following for example:

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

The above scripture demonstrates two major truths:

1). Before the world began, there were names written in the book of life and names that were not written

2). The names were written in the book of life before the world began

Scripture states that God raised Pharaoh up for the sole purpose of displaying His power through him and that His name might be proclaimed throughout all the earth. Paul also used the example of Jacob and Esau stating that, in order that God's purpose in election might stand, before either of the twins were born, before they had done either good or bad, God said, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I loved less.Regarding this Paul goes on to say, "Is God then unjust?" Not at all! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy and compassion upon whom I have compassion." It therefore does not depend on man's effort or desires, but God's sovereign election

StanJ · Jan 28, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Jesus died for sin which is how he reconciled and weed in the world. Once we accept that Redemption turn ourselves to be reconciled with God then we are saved. Jesus died for sin he didn't die for mankind.

Grace777x70 · Jan 28, 2017

Here is a short 6 minute video that sums up things for me. It is all about Jesus - funny about that eh?..it always seems to come down to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

Adstar · Jan 28, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

No.. The parable of the sower of the seed given by Jesus should make that abundantly clear..

It's not about being good and evil.. No human being is Good if people believe Jesus then they will believe Him when He said ""only God is good"' It is about weather one is forgiven or unforgiven ...

The ones who have been chosen are the ones God foreknow would embrace His loving truth of the Gospel. They Way of salvation through grace by the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus and who would keep believing to the end of their lives..

dcontroversal · Jan 28, 2017

He that began a good work in you WILL FINISH IT

I WILL NEVER leave you NOR FORSAKE YOU

ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS GIVEN ME I WILL LOSE NOTHING, BUT WILL RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY

WE CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without WORKS

WE are in the FATHER's HAND, in the HAND of CHRIST and SEALED by the Holy SPIRIT of PROMISE

***WHATSOEVER GOD DOES, IT IS EVERLASTING, nothing added nor taken away form IT and GOD does this so MEN may fear before HIM. ECCLESIASTES 3:14

IT PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE<--refer to ***

It is the SPIRIT that has been born again by INCORRUPTABLE SEED, justified, sanctified and sealed IN CHRIST by the HOLY SPIRIT<--see ***

NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST......what does the word NOTHING MEAN?

IF we believe NOT HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

The bible teaches eternal security...end of story.....those who reject this cannot see to well it seems!

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 28, 2017

dcontroversal said:

By only quoting this do you agree with James also? James 2:26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

External security for only the chosen believers is what I am understanding.

AllenW · Jan 28, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hello 88,

It is God who chose those whom He wanted to save and that not based on anything that we have done or will do, but by God's sovereign selection. Consider the following:

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,"

=====================================

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

====================================

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

===================================

Regarding the above scripture demonstrates that everyone that God selected, their names were written in the book of life before the world began and that there were names that were not written. However, those whose names that were written must still have faith and remain in that faith. According to what Jesus said, it is possible for names to be blotted out of the book of life.

"Like them, the one who is victorious will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

Regarding the above, the promise of not blotting an indiviuals name out of the book of life, is to the believer who is victorious. Therefore it would be the opposite for those who are not victorious.

You're very confusing.
You say there is nothing we can do to be saved.
Yet you also say we have to have faith and keep that faith.
Isn't that doing something on our part?
And we have to be victorious?
Don't we have to do something to be victorious.
And if God is love, then why did he hate Esau before he was born?
Are you not telling us something?
Why would God pick certain people and force them to play a certain evil role in life and then throw them in hell?
You are not painting a very good picture of God.

AllenW · Jan 28, 2017

Depleted said:

What's wrong with discussing it again?
You don't have to listen.

PrynceNY · Jan 28, 2017

Another thread about the osas doctrine lol, can see the arguments now.

AllenW · Jan 28, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Depleted,

I've done the research, many times and salvation is not left in the hands of men. Scripture makes it perfectly clear that it is God who is the one who has chosen whom he wants to save. And His choosing is not based on looking ahead in the future based on who would believe and who wouldn't. Those whom God chose, their names were written in the book of life before the world began. For those whom God foreknew he predestined and those He predestined He called and those He called He justified and glorified.

You have to remember that all people are guilty of sin and are therefore deserving of death. No one is worthy or entitled to salvation. But God in His mercy and grace provided salvation through the death of His Son and He did the choosing. The words "chosen" and "elect" demonstrate God's sovereign choice.

As far as "beating a dead horse" most of the topics on this site have been beaten to death.

So we are puppets after all.
I could love and praise God and still go to hell by your reasoning.

Roughsoul1991 · Jan 28, 2017

PrynceNY said:

Never seen that doctrine. All I pulled from was the Bible so with that many scripture speaking on chosen elect its hard to ignore what they wanted us to know.

Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

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