I am righteous through the work of Christ Jesus

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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#161
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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0
#161
Stunnedbygrace said:
Did he change his view of the son? Yes. He was dead, not alive. Lost to the father.
Did this change that he still loved the son? NO! :)
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I am referring to the son's worth in the father's heart - not that he was away from his father. That's a different subject.

Did you listen to the whole video? I had to listen to the whole message to grasp what was being said at the start. That could be the break-down of our thoughts here or it could just be that they are different too...it does happen to all of us....:)
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#162
#162
Grace777x70 said:

I understand what you are saying as it is against what our church teachings have taught us....I too had the same reaction at the start.

What about the father in the prodigal son story. Did the father change his view of his son even though he was in the mess he was in and what that mess had done to him? Did the father see the worth of his son before he came to him?
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I can break down what I don't like about the video but it's not because of my "church teachings" I wasn't raised in the church so I find that term ironic. Percentage I have gained about 5% from church and the rest from life, talking to people, private study, prayer, reading the bible, more prayer.

A few hours at church even a couple days a week for even 20 years doesn't dive very deep into Bible study.

My belief is we feed our physical body 3 times every day, we should feed our spiritual body at least that many times daily with prayer and study.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#163
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#163
Grace777x70 said:
I am referring to the son's worth in the father's heart - not that he was away from his father. That's a different subject.

Did you listen to the whole video? I had to listen to the whole message to grasp what was being said at the start. That could be the break-down of our thoughts here or it could just be that they are different too...it does happen to all of us....:)
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Yes, I listened to it all. :) I do this with books too. It is helpful to note what objections you have when you begin to read a book and then a lot of times, the writer will cover your objection later. Usually my objection is really only over one thing - presenting part of the truth but without the other part that is in tension to the one being spoken of.

This is a bit subtle, but I will try to tease it out...if God saved me because I was worthy of being saved, then I am making the same mistake (but with a tweak) that those who work for salvation make. And if I was saved because He found me worthy of saving, what of a man who never meets Him? He found worth in me but not in that other human? So you see, being human does not make one worthy of saving or all would be saved because they are worthy of it.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#164
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#164
Ariel82 said:
I can break down what I don't like about the video but it's not because of my "church teachings" I wasn't raised in the church so I find that term ironic. Percentage I have gained about 5% from church and the rest from life, talking to people, private study, prayer, reading the bible, more prayer.

A few hours at church even a couple days a week for even 20 years doesn't dive very deep into Bible study.

My belief is we feed our physical body 3 times every day, we should feed our spiritual body at least that many times daily with prayer and study.
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Amen......I agree with you 100%. A lot of us that have spent time in churches have gotten a lot of our theology from there which is why I used the term "church teachings". I agree 100% that we need to be looking at things ourselves and God uses teachers to help in this too.

I find that if I listen to a message all the way through when someone is explaining something new - then I can usually get a better understanding of what is being said. I can then agree or disagree with it or just agree with parts of it.

Did you listen to the whole video?
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#165
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#165
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, I listened to it all. :) I do this with books too. It is helpful to note what objections you have when you begin to read a book and then a lot of times, the writer will cover your objection later. Usually my objection is really only over one thing - presenting part of the truth but without the other part that is in tension to the one being spoken of.

This is a bit subtle, but I will try to tease it out...if God saved me because I was worthy of being saved, then I am making the same mistake (but with a tweak) that those who work for salvation make. And if I was saved because He found me worthy of saving, what of a man who never meets Him? He found worth in me but not in that other human? So you see, being human does not make one worthy of saving or all would be saved because they are worthy of it.
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I see what you are saying and there is sometimes "tension" when looking at some truths.

Perhaps it's the definition we have in our minds of what the term "worthy" means and that could be mis-leading?

Worthy can mean - we are worthy because of what we do or don't do - the opposite of that is called "intrinsic worth" without the person doing anything.

The man that has never met Him will one day and he will be able to choose or reject Christ. As the scripture says "Will not the God of all justice do right." ( This is a totally different subject for another thread. )

Let me try it this way. Let's say I have a silver coin and it is worth $1,000 in value. I lose this coin - does this coin lose it's "intrinsic value" even though it is lost to me at this moment in time?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#166
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#166
Grace777x70 said:
I see what you are saying and there is sometimes "tension" when looking at some truths.

Perhaps it's the definition we have in our minds of what the term "worthy" means and that could be mis-leading?

Worthy can mean - we are worthy because of what we do or don't do - the opposite of that is called "intrinsic worth" without the person doing anything.

The man that has never met Him will one day and he will be able to choose or reject Christ. As the scripture says "Will not the God of all justice do right.". ( This is a totally different subject for another thread. )

Let me try it this way. Let's say I have a silver coin and it is worth $1,000 in value. I lose this coin - does this coin lose it's "intrinsic value" even though it is lost to me at this moment in time?
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Well, we are not talking about easy things here, but do you and I ever? :D
Yes, I can see where our definition may be different. I do not think I had any intrinsic worth. I do not think I was saved because of any good thing that was in me. I believe I was saved only because God is gracious and loving and full of mercy. By grace was I saved, not because of any intrinsic worth. What worth does a dead man have?
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#167
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#167
Stunnedbygrace said:
Well, we are not talking about easy things here, but do you and I ever? :D
Yes, I can see where our definition may be different. I do not think I had any intrinsic worth. I do not think I was saved because of any good thing that was in me. I believe I was saved only because God is gracious and loving and full of mercy. By grace was I saved, not because of any intrinsic worth. What worth does a dead man have?
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LOL.....yes..we do seem to talk about hard to understand things sometimes..:)

I guess it's this "intrinsic worth" that God sees in us because of His nature is what the Lord is currently showing me. ( it's not that we can do anything to redeem ourselves with our own worthiness - because we can't )

I think it is God showing me how He loves us but only from a different perspective than I have thought of before and it is really showing me the origin or nature of His fiery love for us.

Sometimes it is hard to articulate what we see on the inside of us when it is in embryo stage. I find that for myself sometimes...:)..


Anyway - I will see where the Lord takes me in this. I am finding that the understanding of the nature and origin of His love is really cementing in my mind and heart our oneness together and that I can trust Him in all things.

Thanks for your thoughts on it and discussing it with me...:)
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#168
#168
Grace777x70 said:
[video=youtube;3W4jgWAiYfM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W4jgWAiYfM&t=5s[/video][/FONT][/SIZE]
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Dislike his definition of holy, fullness of God, blameless

He makes it sounds like he says we are equal to God and that is all sorts of wrong. He does clarify it later.

I agree that God made humanity as HIS.

Romans 8...we groan in this body waiting for the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies.

Fullness of God means that we have eternal life and follow God's will perfectly.

Adopt dust?

I disagree with that concept. We have life because God breathed it into us...not the dust but the soul is adopted. The dust is the body that will be destroyed in death.

It gets good at 25 minutes when it talks about teaching people out of slave mentality and how to speak their language to tell them how God truly views us.

How God wants to free us from bondage and doesn't see us as slaves but His beloved people.

Minute 35 he finally clarifies blameless:

Egypt: make 500 bricks daily
GOD: freedom from oppression

Still don't agree that Blameless is the best word to use, butsees the point he is trying to make.

Wow min 43 is shocking. "What could I had done so that this child would not have done this?"

Mmm..wish he had defined agape love which is not the same as the Webster generalised definition of love.

Okay, I take it back. I do like the video. Dont like the way he used some words but his message was good.

God "not being pleased" with people who are to stay in the slave mentality of keeping the old covenant law is like God not being pleased that the parents felt when their son commited suicide. It comes from a place of love because the son choose death instead of life.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#169
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#169
Yes, thank you too for the discussion. :)
It seems to me it's a bit like the discussion ariel and I had about whether I was born with an eternal spirit, and she made the distinction that she did not think that but that we were born with a spirit that then dies because of sin. She gave me plenty of verses that tweaked my understanding on it. So I now believe there is a dead spirit in each of us and in that sense, I can vaguely see that there CAN become an intrinsic worth in us IF He quickens and brings back to life that spirit with His own Spirit. In that case, we then do have an intrinsic worth because the Spirit of God dwells in us. But it still does not seem there was an intrinsic worth in me before I was given His life. And I don't see an intrinsic worth in others before they are brought to life, but I love them because God loves and desires them just as He loved and desired me.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#170
#170
I see where questions of universalism might be raised. Since its not address in that video.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#171
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#171
Ariel82 said:
I see where questions of universalism might be raised. Since its not address in that video.
Click to expand...
Yes...I can see that...because if the son didn't return, he would have remained dead to the father...
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#172
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#172
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes...I can see that...because if the son didn't return, he would have remained dead to the father...
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Which I do not want to discuss because there a lot of knots still there for me that I am waiting for Him to unknot for me. :)
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#173
Nov 22, 2015
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#173
Ariel82 said:
Dislike his definition of holy, fullness of God, blameless

He makes it sounds like he says we are equal to God and that is all sorts of wrong. He does clarify it later.

I agree that God made humanity as HIS.

Romans 8...we groan in this body waiting for the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies.

Fullness of God means that we have eternal life and follow God's will perfectly.

Adopt dust?

I disagree with that concept. We have life because God breathed it into us...not the dust but the soul is adopted. The dust is the body that will be destroyed in death.

It gets good at 25 minutes when it talks about teaching people out of slave mentality and how to speak their language to tell them how God truly views us.

How God wants to free us from bondage and doesn't see us as slaves but His beloved people.

Minute 35 he finally clarifies blameless:

Egypt: make 500 bricks daily
GOD: freedom from oppression

Still don't agree that Blameless is the best word to use, butsees the point he is trying to make.

Wow min 43 is shocking. "What could I had done so that this child would not have done this?"

Mmm..wish he had defined agape love which is not the same as the Webster generalised definition of love.

Okay, I take it back. I do like the video. Dont like the way he used some words but his message was good.

God "not being pleased" with people who are to stay in the slave mentality of keeping the old covenant law is like God not being pleased that the parents felt when their son commited suicide. It comes from a place of love because the son choose death instead of life.
Click to expand...

I agree that some of the terms used can mean different things to different people. I had the same feeling about using Webster's dictionary as a source for trying to define the meaning of a word. I heard someone say that Webster was a Christian and that his original work was based on biblical definitions ( albeit - it could have been his thoughts on the definition too...I don't know )

I was listening to another teaching from this same guy about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he said that the original meaning of the word "evil" means "full of labors, toilsome".

I thought he was nuts until I looked it up..lol..ok..he might still be nuts but he was right about the original meaning of the word.

I didn't really catch on about the "dust part" either - maybe he is referring to our new bodies that Jesus will redeem?

I too liked the message and it spoke of different things to me that I had never considered before. His teachings on the wrath and vengeance of God in the light of the grace and love of God are really eye-opening too.
 
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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#174
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#174
Ariel82 said:
I see where questions of universalism might be raised. Since its not address in that video.
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He talks about universalism in another teaching and he definitely does not believe in it nor does he teach it.

There is a vast difference between a universal work of Christ and everyone believing and receiving that universal work of Christ. The scripture is clear on both accounts.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#175
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#175
Stunnedbygrace said:
So I now believe there is a dead spirit in each of us and in that sense
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This language is very different from my own experience of people

I look at people as a life potential. We are given life and make the best we can as we
learn. No rule book, just follow what is put in front of you and what seems to work.
So sheep aimlessly walking around, finding sympathy but in the end falling victim to one
or another trap.

Then Jesus dawns. A defined purpose, direction, focus, life, communion, structure.
And the value was we were sheep astray, and now am found and alive. And the difference
is night and day, but people have value. But that value becomes meaningless without God,
but unbelievers live in a twilight world of not knowing, yet aware something is wrong, but they
are not sure what.

What I have found is those without Christ tend to be a patchwork quilt of chaos, and conflict
covered over with a nice superficial social face. So if truth dawns, and the cover is removed
nothing adds up and just disappears into a heap. Jesus is about new life and total resolution,
becoming real on the inside as you are on the outside.

When I look at anybody they are all potential children of the Father, but to start the walk
is the only way. This is a very different outline, but it has driven my life, and has got stronger
the more I have learnt.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#176
#176
Perhaps you could post a link...would definitely clear up his views a bit....unless Peter objects.

If he does we can move to another thread.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#177
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#177
New birth is the laying of the foundation of cleansing and purification.
Without this the Holy Spirit could not come to dwell in His temple.

Transformation from the old self which dies with Christ on the cross and
putting on the new self walking in the Spirit is a choice of the will, sowing
to life and reaping blessing in our hearts.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#178
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#178
Ariel82 said:
Perhaps you could post a link...would definitely clear up his views a bit....unless Peter objects.

If he does we can move to another thread.
Click to expand...
I think things like that could help too because what sometimes happens is we "hear some terms" being used and we equate them to something else other than the intent in which they were used in the first place. Or, we don't have the foundation in the truth to begin with and thus think it's all nutss...lol..at least I do.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#179
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
113
#179
PeterJens said:
This language is very different from my own experience of people

I look at people as a life potential. We are given life and make the best we can as we
learn. No rule book, just follow what is put in front of you and what seems to work.
So sheep aimlessly walking around, finding sympathy but in the end falling victim to one
or another trap.

Then Jesus dawns. A defined purpose, direction, focus, life, communion, structure.
And the value was we were sheep astray, and now am found and alive. And the difference
is night and day, but people have value. But that value becomes meaningless without God,
but unbelievers live in a twilight world of not knowing, yet aware something is wrong, but they
are not sure what.

What I have found is those without Christ tend to be a patchwork quilt of chaos, and conflict
covered over with a nice superficial social face. So if truth dawns, and the cover is removed
nothing adds up and just disappears into a heap. Jesus is about new life and total resolution,
becoming real on the inside as you are on the outside.

When I look at anybody they are all potential children of the Father, but to start the walk
is the only way. This is a very different outline, but it has driven my life, and has got stronger
the more I have learnt.
Click to expand...
I think God sees the potential life that could be too, if He quickens a mans spirit to life. He isn't willing that any of us perish. He wants each of us to come to repentance and to receive His Spirit and live. :)
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#180
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#180
We are what we have done.

1. All our reactions are programmed by our learnt behaviours.
2. Our choices and personalities are expressed by how we chosen to act.

When anyone looks at us that is who we are and all behaviour is predictable
based on who we have been.

In Christ, a new foundation is laid which means all our behaviour and expressions
are now new. With Christ how we deal with things has become new as we
walk in the Spirit and not the old self.

God loves us because of this new person we have become, not the old person
we where which was doomed to judgement.

This is the Holy and blameless eternal people we are called into.
As a people we are in communion with God.

It is why this new walk is righteous and pure, and the fulfillment of the cross.
 
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