Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[JustWhoIAm]

So you understand God and all his complexities? You really must be smart..lol

Seriously. Do I have to make a meme poster of a literal living God with literal angels around him (perhaps in another dimension somewhere) having telepathic communications with his faithful on earth? Do I have to tell you that the guy on the throne has superpowers of unimaginable magnitude (God is the master of reality. He just is - The bush told Moses.)

He tells us that Abraham was justified by faith. If the Word of God says it, it must be true. We don't need to understand everything about God to believe in his witness.

 

[blue_ladybug]

That right there. "UNIMAGINABLE magnitude". I know He's the God of reality, and that he has supernatural powers. BUT I don't entirely understand the depth of them.

Seriously. Do I have to make a meme poster of a literal living God with literal angels around him (perhaps in another dimension somewhere) having telepathic communications with his faithful on earth? Do I have to tell you that the guy on the throne has superpowers of unimaginable magnitude (God is the master of reality. He just is - The bush told Moses.)

He tells us that Abraham was justified by faith. If the Word of God says it, it must be true. We don't need to understand everything about God to believe in his witness.

 

[dcontroversal]

By only quoting this do you agree with James also? James 2:26Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

External security for only the chosen believers is what I am understanding.

The key to James is context, which is rejected by ALL who hold to a works based false salvation....

Paul teaches in Romans-->WE conclude a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds of the law (works)
James teaches in James-->A man is justified by works......

there is no contradiction...

Paul speaks before GOD<--our faith is put to the account for righteousness
James speaks before men<---our faith (that justifies) is seen before men by our works

NO ONE is saying that a believer will not bear fruit or have works.....what we at saying is that the works are the result of the salvation one already possesses by faith...

FAITH SAVES ETERNALLY and will bear at least ONE piece of fruit
FAITH ALONE saves
Faith that saves will produce, but the works do not help save, keep saved and or facilitate salvation...!

 

[FranC]

Fran, if someone denies Jesus, I do believe but am not sure, that they do indeed lose their salvation. After all, if they don't believe He exists, they don't need salvation. BUT for the ones who DO believe, THEY CANNOT lose their salvation.

If you DO believe, you ARE saved.
We agree on this 100%.

If you DO NOT believe, you CANNOT be saved.
In agreement Blue Ladybug.

Fran

 

[StanJ]

I've done the research, many times and salvation is not left in the hands of men. Scripture makes it perfectly clear that it is God who is the one who has chosen whom he wants to save.

It seems your research and my studying of the Bible have come up with two different results, so how about you show us where the scripture makes it perfectly clear that God chooses who will be saved?

 

[FranC]

Debating is not a bad thing it's the intentions behind the debating that makes it good or bad and I am glad you have the right motives to debate. I am not a believer in osas and I think that new Christians would be better off not believing it either however this is a touchy subject and the thing that will affect the hearts of new believers the most is not the topic itself but how we react and speak of the topic.

I never know who is watching as new believers and hidden users are on these forums all the time and so I make it a point to always respond in love understanding and never attack, I have seen God use this to affect people far more than proving or disproving a certain doctrine.

subjects like these are never fully proven other wise the issue would not be a constant battle in every thread on the subject but we can however do our best to show our evidence and understanding of the subject in a mature calm and Christ like manner, that is what will affect the hearts of the people.

I agree Blain. It's just that Blue Ladybug seemed to shrug it off. Maybe I owe her an apology.
I DO BELIEVE, however, that the doctrine of OSAS can be proven as false.

From the time of the Apostles and up until the 1,500's when John Calvin came up with the 5 point Calvinist doctrine, the church did not believe in eternal security. This can be proven by studying the early church Fathers. This is easy to do. Just google what the early church fathers believed about eternal security. Here are just a couple:

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)


“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

We can safely say that the early church did not believe in eternal security. This doctrine was invented by John Calvin. If we are to believe him, we'd have to say that all theologians that came before him were totally wrong.
How could those closer to the time of Jesus not know better than those who came 1,500 years after?

Fran

 

[FranC]

True, but many have died, and will die, with unrepented sin. However, don't you think that maybe a loving and merciful God WILL give us one last chance to repent before he judges us? I do.

Hi Blue Ladybug,
I think Roughsoul answered this, but it's important and I just want to make sure. This thread is moving too fast for me!
If you die with unrepentant sin, God forgives you if you had already accepted Jesus as Savior.

God knows our heart, He knows everything about us and knows that we would have repented. it's important to remember what John said: God IS LOVE. His love for us, His creation, can overcome his justice.
1 John 4:8

Fran

 

[Willie-T]

True, but many have died, and will die, with unrepented sin. However, don't you think that maybe a loving and merciful God WILL give us one last chance to repent before he judges us? I do.

So do I. Don't know how, why, or when, but I can't rule it out.

 

[88]

I agree Blain. It's just that Blue Ladybug seemed to shrug it off. Maybe I owe her an apology.
I DO BELIEVE, however, that the doctrine of OSAS can be proven as false.

From the time of the Apostles and up until the 1,500's when John Calvin came up with the 5 point Calvinist doctrine, the church did not believe in eternal security. This can be proven by studying the early church Fathers. This is easy to do. Just google what the early church fathers believed about eternal security. Here are just a couple:

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)


“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

We can safely say that the early church did not believe in eternal security. This doctrine was invented by John Calvin. If we are to believe him, we'd have to say that all theologians that came before him were totally wrong.
How could those closer to the time of Jesus not know better than those who came 1,500 years after?

Fran

****Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrine which emphasizes God's sovereignty---preknowledge---election ect.----but it does not recognize fully the free will of man----whosoever will can come to Christ----since we have free will to come---Grace is Awesome---but not irresistible ---we can turn away---it is not easy to lose our salvation---I would not bet on trying it out...

 

[FranC]

That sounds cool but to me if that's true then people could just get by with being lukewarm and at the end ask forgiveness and walk on into heaven. If that's the case I been trying way to hard to live by all of God's word

Right once again Roughsoul. And I just noticed your age. Smart!
I think we'll be agreeing on lots of stuff...

Fran

 

[Ariel82]

Nice thread.

 

[FranC]

*Grin*

It's difficult to comprehend the truth? News to me.

Hi,
I believe Blue is saying that she things it's difficult to understand God, NOT the truth. Jesus is the truth, what HE says is the truth.

However, it IS very difficult to understand God. Are you able to reconcile His being sovereign with our free will?
Can you understand why He ever made man if He knew some would be lost?

God is NOT easy to understand. We only know about Him what HE desires for us to know.

Fran

 

[FranC]

I was told by my Methodist preacher this is the main topic Methodist believe differently than Baptist. And really many Methodist/Baptist don't even know there is a big difference. So I studied and this seems to be true between the 2 denominations.

Hi Roughsoul,
It's not between two denominations, it's between two different theologies:
Calvinism (baptists)
Arminianism (methodists)

Every church believes in either one or the other or some parts of one or the other.

Fran

 

[blue_ladybug]

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. lol... It is very difficult to understand God..

Hi,
I believe Blue is saying that she things it's difficult to understand God, NOT the truth. Jesus is the truth, what HE says is the truth.

However, it IS very difficult to understand God. Are you able to reconcile His being sovereign with our free will?
Can you understand why He ever made man if He knew some would be lost?

God is NOT easy to understand. We only know about Him what HE desires for us to know.

Fran

 

[FranC]

What I have a hard time comprehending is Jesus is God but son of God and so God crucified himself, while Jesus son of God cries out to God before death. Lol

When Jesus was on earth, He was also totally 100% man, so as a MAN, He was crying out to the Father in heaven.

"Into your hands" is a statement of trust. Jesus trusted the Father, the 1st person of the Holy Trinity.
There's a good book that explains this: Death on a Friday Afternoon by John Neuhaus. It's about the 7 "last words" of Christ from the cross - you may want to read it, it's very good.

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally from the scriptures I don't see one verse that says we who are in Christ - ever get to "not being in Christ".

What I do see is people taking warning scriptures about walking after the flesh and how destruction will come to us by walking after flesh and then equating that with being rejected by Christ and He somehow or other dis-engages His Spirit from our spirit were we are joined as one spirit even though He Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever and that "no one can pluck you out of My hand nor My Father's hand".

I don't believe that Jesus is a liar but I do see how people can be mis-lead by incorrectly interpreting the scriptures on salvation and come to what I believe to be a wrong understanding of what it means to be in Christ.

 

[FranC]

****Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrine which emphasizes God's sovereignty---preknowledge---election ect.----but it does not recognize fully the free will of man----whosoever will can come to Christ----since we have free will to come---Grace is Awesome---but not irresistible ---we can turn away---it is not easy to lose our salvation---I would not bet on trying it out...

I know the OSAS doctrine does not recognize the free will of man. This is the problem 88. Does man have free will, or does he not?

If I'm free to choose to be saved, why am I not free to choose to loose my salvation? Do I become a slave because I'm saved? Do I become that famous puppet of God's? If He wants me to choose Him freely, which love MUST be chosen freely, then am I not to remain with Him freely?

If God desires that all men come to Him, then it stands to reason that I'm FREE to CHOOSE Him and He is not forcing me to choose Him. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

Why should He force me to REMAIN with Him? Was not the Prodigal Son allowed to leave the household of the Father?

Fran

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Roughsoul,
It's not between two denominations, it's between two different theologies:
Calvinism (baptists)
Arminianism (methodists)

Every church believes in either one or the other or some parts of one or the other.

Fran

The bolded is a broad stroke of the brush.....Landmark Missionary Baptists do not hold to a Calvinistic view.....!

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe we have a wrong idea of free will and what that really means when we look at the heart of Man which is where we believe - not the head.

Can someone by an "act of their will" un-born themselves from being a human being? Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will - I am un-born myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind )

Can some one by "an act of their will" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lies and abides forever. We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us -the inner man ofthe heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done".


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[FranC]

Personally from the scriptures I don't see one verse that says we who are in Christ - ever get to "not being in Christ".

What I do see is people taking warning scriptures about walking after the flesh and how destruction will come to us by walking after flesh and then equating that with being rejected by Christ and He somehow or other dis-engages His Spirit from our spirit were we are joined as one spirit even though He Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever and that "no one can pluck you out of My hand nor My Father's hand".

I don't believe that Jesus is a liar but I do see how people can be mis-lead by incorrectly interpreting the scriptures on salvation and come to what I believe to be a wrong understanding of what it means to be in Christ.

Hi Grace,
To me it's all about free will. I explained it above. We either have it or we don't. If we DO have it, why would it be taken away after salvation?

We could post scripture back and forth and I'm willing, but I like to use some common sense too.

1. What about what the early church Fathers believed? I had posted 2 or 3 above. I could post again, and more.
2. John 10:28 Jesus gives eternal life to them that want it and cling to Him. No One could pluck them out of His hand, but could they decide they want to walk out?
3. If we could not lose our salvation, why did Jesus and the Apostles implore us to HOLD ON to our faith?
Hebrews 3:6

but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Revelation 3:3


'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.


1 Timothy 1:19

keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.


Why would the bible speak about leaving the faith and backsliding unless it were possible to do so?

Looking forward to your response tomorrow.



Fran