Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?
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Hi Fran,
All good and legitimate questions....
I was brought up after getting saved in an Armenian church so I'm familiar with the doctrine of supposedly losing one's salvation but the more I studied the scriptures and saw what Christ has done - I had to abandon that doctrine.
I had previously explained that "free will" only has so much weight in the scheme of things. Once you are born-again - we cannot unborn ourselves no matter how sick in our minds we get. It violates the very essence of being born in the first place.
I do believe we have the free will to choose with our heart to believe in Christ and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit who Jesus said He would be with us forever.
I'll answer your questions -
1) Church fathers said some things that seemed to indicate we lose salvation as in being with the Lord.
That is their opinion - like Ireanous said "“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180) - there is no scripture for this belief and statement that he made.
And Justin Marytr - to me he is just saying that those that know Jesus is the Christ and go back to the Law of Moses - these will be lost if they don't repent and come to Christ. Hebrews 10:26-29 says the same thing. There is a difference between knowing the truth and receiving the truth of Christ alone for the sacrifice of sins.
And Tertullian - is just giving his opinion. Imagine Jesus dying for the world and then most that come to Him will not be with Him for eternity. Something wrong there in his opinion of things in this area of understanding the work of Christ.
2) Are we " a person"?...Jesus said "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Are we an "one? - as in a person" Of course. As I said - we can get screwed up in our thinking but our spirit which is in Christ is not affected because we have been created in righteousness and holiness and we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.
3) Of course people can backslide ( as you put it ) and not be in faith in dealing with many areas of life and living.
The truth is most of us are not in faith like we can be in our daily walk with the Lord because we are not really trusting Him like we should. Therefore we miss out on a lot of "life" that is available to us.
It is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises of God. Give up in holding out for something from the Lord ( like peace or hope in the midst of a battle ) and we can lose out in this life and not experience "salvation" like we can. Salvation means to preserve, deliverance, to make well, to keep safe.
God thinks and lives in terms of "life". Jesus didn't really save us so that we could go to heaven ( altho that is true but it is a by-product ). He came to bring us "life". This "life" can be manifested here on this earth while we are alive as well as for sure when we die because then we have this flesh gone and our unrenewed minds are not going to hinder us either.
I will be happy to discuss anything else you may think of and it is good to be able to discuss these things in a civil way like we have. It is a blessing talking with you. I know that this is different from what some of us have been brought up to believe.
Have a great night and chat with you later.
All good and legitimate questions....
I was brought up after getting saved in an Armenian church so I'm familiar with the doctrine of supposedly losing one's salvation but the more I studied the scriptures and saw what Christ has done - I had to abandon that doctrine.
I had previously explained that "free will" only has so much weight in the scheme of things. Once you are born-again - we cannot unborn ourselves no matter how sick in our minds we get. It violates the very essence of being born in the first place.
I do believe we have the free will to choose with our heart to believe in Christ and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit who Jesus said He would be with us forever.
I'll answer your questions -
1) Church fathers said some things that seemed to indicate we lose salvation as in being with the Lord.
That is their opinion - like Ireanous said "“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180) - there is no scripture for this belief and statement that he made.
And Justin Marytr - to me he is just saying that those that know Jesus is the Christ and go back to the Law of Moses - these will be lost if they don't repent and come to Christ. Hebrews 10:26-29 says the same thing. There is a difference between knowing the truth and receiving the truth of Christ alone for the sacrifice of sins.
And Tertullian - is just giving his opinion. Imagine Jesus dying for the world and then most that come to Him will not be with Him for eternity. Something wrong there in his opinion of things in this area of understanding the work of Christ.
2) Are we " a person"?...Jesus said "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Are we an "one? - as in a person" Of course. As I said - we can get screwed up in our thinking but our spirit which is in Christ is not affected because we have been created in righteousness and holiness and we are joined as one spirit with the Lord.
3) Of course people can backslide ( as you put it ) and not be in faith in dealing with many areas of life and living.
The truth is most of us are not in faith like we can be in our daily walk with the Lord because we are not really trusting Him like we should. Therefore we miss out on a lot of "life" that is available to us.
It is with faith and patience that we inherit the promises of God. Give up in holding out for something from the Lord ( like peace or hope in the midst of a battle ) and we can lose out in this life and not experience "salvation" like we can. Salvation means to preserve, deliverance, to make well, to keep safe.
God thinks and lives in terms of "life". Jesus didn't really save us so that we could go to heaven ( altho that is true but it is a by-product ). He came to bring us "life". This "life" can be manifested here on this earth while we are alive as well as for sure when we die because then we have this flesh gone and our unrenewed minds are not going to hinder us either.
I will be happy to discuss anything else you may think of and it is good to be able to discuss these things in a civil way like we have. It is a blessing talking with you. I know that this is different from what some of us have been brought up to believe.
Have a great night and chat with you later.
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I agree we can never deny our creator as his creation. We are created in his image making us children born of the creator. But that has nothing to do with salvation. We may be children of God but even once saved how is it logical that a person can be saved but then deny God one day, never to repent but to live to make him self happy instead the Lord, still be saved? We have all this scripture on how to live, being lukewarm, being ready because we don't know the day or the hour. Once saved i suppose the day or hour don't matter no more because no matter what I do, I have nothing to worry about. Just like my brother grew up in the faith same as me. But he now does not sed God as a good God and would rather trust himself. And according to y'all that's okay fir him to live that way, I shouldn't be worried for his soul because he accepted God as a youth so he will still go to heaven. Does not make since. If he was to die right now I would fear for his soul. Hopefully he will turn back before that day.
I understand your concern for your brother. God loves him more than you can ever imagine and He will deal with him is His own way to reveal His true nature and love for him. You can trust the Lord to do that for him....
I would like to say that it is not okay for him to live however he or anyone wants and no one is saying that it is okay. Living contrary to the life that God brings to us will bring destruction to our lives.
It is obvious that your brother has a warped view of His Father and I can understand that with some teachings that seem to say that very thing. Sometimes we get dis-illusioned in our thinking because of the circumstances we encounter and it affects us negatively towards the Lord too.
The answer to him and all of us is to preach and teach the love and grace of God because that is the gospel which brings life to all of us. Watch how the Lord deals with your brother and turn him over to the Lord. He will be faithful to him and reveal Himself in a fuller way that will bring your brother true life....
I would like to say that it is not okay for him to live however he or anyone wants and no one is saying that it is okay. Living contrary to the life that God brings to us will bring destruction to our lives.
It is obvious that your brother has a warped view of His Father and I can understand that with some teachings that seem to say that very thing. Sometimes we get dis-illusioned in our thinking because of the circumstances we encounter and it affects us negatively towards the Lord too.
The answer to him and all of us is to preach and teach the love and grace of God because that is the gospel which brings life to all of us. Watch how the Lord deals with your brother and turn him over to the Lord. He will be faithful to him and reveal Himself in a fuller way that will bring your brother true life....
I was saved in a Baptist Church and for many years believed once saved always saved, now I believe in eternal security for those who have accepted Christ as Savior AND who maintain their faith in Christ for the duration of their life. I believe it is possible for a born again believer to turn from God if they chose to...so therefore it is possible for them to lose what God has given them. To assume that no human who accepted Christ has ever decided to reject Christ later is absurd. I know of a lady who accepted Christ and was a great Christian for several years until she met this man that was Hindu and she fell in love with him and in time she became Hindu and had no interest what so ever in Jesus Christ...it is crazy to think that such a person is still saved!
Who can fathom the love and grace of God? God says as far as the heavens is above the earth that is how far His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts.
The Lord who redeemed us with His own blood - He will have the final say about what is in our hearts in Christ - whether we are in Christ or not which is why Paul says to "examine yourselves to see if you are in Christ - it not - then you are reprobates".
God is not a man that He should lie. Has He spoken? And shall He not make it good?
If we get sick in our bodies and die - do we go to heaven? Sometimes we get a sickness in our minds that deceives us but it is with the heart that man believes unto righteousness. The spirit is alive because of righteousness - not ours but Christ's righteousness.
The Lord who redeemed us with His own blood - He will have the final say about what is in our hearts in Christ - whether we are in Christ or not which is why Paul says to "examine yourselves to see if you are in Christ - it not - then you are reprobates".
God is not a man that He should lie. Has He spoken? And shall He not make it good?
If we get sick in our bodies and die - do we go to heaven? Sometimes we get a sickness in our minds that deceives us but it is with the heart that man believes unto righteousness. The spirit is alive because of righteousness - not ours but Christ's righteousness.
I agree. Until people have gone through testing times and emotional upheavels,
it is surprising who stands and who falls.
It is like friendships. People hold such a loose handle on them, and claim to be so
close, yet they are not the ones who turn out to be true to the end.
One brother who loved the Lord came from a culture where the son was meant to
deeply respect the dad, yet when his son did not, it hurt him so much he left the faith.
After a year, he finally forgave his son, who actually was not a believer, and learnt
his love for the Lord was greater than his hurt from his son.
Now years before I would not have predicted this pride would have been such a problem.
So we do not know ourselves often and where the tests will come from to prove where
we really are. I praise the Lord I have grown strong in Him and He has blessed me, but
I know how hard these choices and tests can be. But we are talking eternal realities,
not just flashes in a pan, on something that is just nice.
it is surprising who stands and who falls.
It is like friendships. People hold such a loose handle on them, and claim to be so
close, yet they are not the ones who turn out to be true to the end.
One brother who loved the Lord came from a culture where the son was meant to
deeply respect the dad, yet when his son did not, it hurt him so much he left the faith.
After a year, he finally forgave his son, who actually was not a believer, and learnt
his love for the Lord was greater than his hurt from his son.
Now years before I would not have predicted this pride would have been such a problem.
So we do not know ourselves often and where the tests will come from to prove where
we really are. I praise the Lord I have grown strong in Him and He has blessed me, but
I know how hard these choices and tests can be. But we are talking eternal realities,
not just flashes in a pan, on something that is just nice.
[h=1]Matthew 7:21Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
This is what I fear most. This is why I do not believe my salvation is locked in and I can live practicing a lukewarm relationship. If I do not try to make God first then my faith is false and selfish. [/FONT]
This is what I fear most. This is why I do not believe my salvation is locked in and I can live practicing a lukewarm relationship. If I do not try to make God first then my faith is false and selfish. [/FONT]
Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:
"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...( Jesus never said " I used to know you once."..He said I NEVER knew you at all...).
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...( Jesus never said " I used to know you once."..He said I NEVER knew you at all...).
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
[h=1]John 3:3-5Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again,[a] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit,[b] he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The spirit must be with the human being saved. The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a bodily temple that is corrupted with sin, disobedience, and rebellion. Even if once saved only repentance can allow something Holy as God to live within the person.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Mark 16:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
If a believer falls from his belief in Christ according to Mark he also won't be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit,[b] he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The spirit must be with the human being saved. The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a bodily temple that is corrupted with sin, disobedience, and rebellion. Even if once saved only repentance can allow something Holy as God to live within the person.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Mark 16:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
If a believer falls from his belief in Christ according to Mark he also won't be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 10:9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
If confessing our belief in Jesus saves us then wouldn't denying Jesus and his will contradict this? [/FONT]
If confessing our belief in Jesus saves us then wouldn't denying Jesus and his will contradict this? [/FONT]
New American Standard Bible
John 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD,THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
How is it that those that believe in predestination overlook the most important scripture in the whole Bible? And these?
Mark 8:35 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Acts 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
The only predestined thing God did was Jesus dying on the cross for man's sins before the foundation of the world.
John 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD,THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
How is it that those that believe in predestination overlook the most important scripture in the whole Bible? And these?
Mark 8:35 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Acts 2:21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
The only predestined thing God did was Jesus dying on the cross for man's sins before the foundation of the world.
So then your salvation is dependent upon YOUR behavior? Mine is based on the blood of Christ, the confession that He is God, and the belief that He rose from the dead. And even that belief is a gift of God.
The thought that there is NOTHING we can do to obtain or maintain Salvation is completely counterintuitive to the human mind. Another big reason I know the Gospel is true.
The thought that there is NOTHING we can do to obtain or maintain Salvation is completely counterintuitive to the human mind. Another big reason I know the Gospel is true.
I don't think he is trying to say his salvation is based upon his behavior? Can you answer that question Roughsoul1991? (Post # 116)
All those I know (including myself) who do not hold to OSAS also believe that our salvation is "based on the blood of Christ, the confession that He is God, and the belief that He rose from the dead. And even that belief is a gift of God." Paul says this quite clearly in Eph. 2:8-10: [SUP] "[/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP] [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP] [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
All those I know (including myself) who do not hold to OSAS also believe that our salvation is "based on the blood of Christ, the confession that He is God, and the belief that He rose from the dead. And even that belief is a gift of God." Paul says this quite clearly in Eph. 2:8-10: [SUP] "[/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP] [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP] [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
No not behaviour but belief. Behaviour will come from belief. If one does not believe then his actions will also counter the teachings of God. The key words in my paragraph is if I turned away from God. Obviously if I lived for God so would my actions. But people believe that once saved that's a straight ticket to heaven no matter if the person forever gives up on God and lives for the world. That's what don't make since to me.
There is nothing we can do to make God save us or to make God maintain us...all of that comes from God. On the other hand, there is something we can do to keep God from saving us, and there is something we can do that would keep God from maintaining us. That something is our option to choose. Millions of people go into hell against the will of God because they had the option to choose and they chose to ignore or reject God. There are those who have chosen to accept God, but later chose to reject God...how could they do that? Because they had the option to chose to accept and later to reject. When we come to Christ, God does not remove out option to choose. If you don't believe that then look at all the different views in this Christian forum.