Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Sin is actions that are a symptom of the heart that is dying.
Without Gods love at work within us, our hearts will decay and destroy us.
Everyones heart is different and different distortions develop. They fact they
will always develop without the Lord being present is the testimony of God.
From our perspective, with Gods presence and healing we can establish order
and life. It is really this simple.
Without Gods love at work within us, our hearts will decay and destroy us.
Everyones heart is different and different distortions develop. They fact they
will always develop without the Lord being present is the testimony of God.
From our perspective, with Gods presence and healing we can establish order
and life. It is really this simple.
I think gb9's point has been proven. What you are saying has nothing to do with the question at hand. You talk about evil desires etc etc, the question still remains when when does this corruption take place? is it in the womb or sometime later.
Lets be more precise so that it is easier to answer, do we inherit a sin nature or do you believe we do not have one.?
S
Yes the elect are saved and that's the only way that can be called the elect if they are saved.
I'm not a huge fan of John Piper but in this regard I think he is right on.
What Is the Difference Between ‘Called’ and ‘Chosen’? | Desiring God
I'm not a huge fan of John Piper but in this regard I think he is right on.
What Is the Difference Between ‘Called’ and ‘Chosen’? | Desiring God
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:5
The tongue of the righteous is choice silver; the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Prov 10:20
The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
Prov 15:28
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:8
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person.
Matt 15:19-20
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick
Jeremiah 17:9
So where is your corruption.
If the heart can be cleansed and bring forth good things for a righteous man
it cannot be corrupted in and of itself.
So I see no corruption, I see an inevitable rebellion against God because of
how it has been made to exist in communion with God, without which it
destroys itself and dies.
Gen 6:5
The tongue of the righteous is choice silver; the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Prov 10:20
The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
Prov 15:28
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:8
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person.
Matt 15:19-20
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick
Jeremiah 17:9
So where is your corruption.
If the heart can be cleansed and bring forth good things for a righteous man
it cannot be corrupted in and of itself.
So I see no corruption, I see an inevitable rebellion against God because of
how it has been made to exist in communion with God, without which it
destroys itself and dies.
We inherit from Adam an aloneness, and separation from God that will destroy
us inside.
The more we justify ourselves and our sinful acts and intentions the more it will
decay and destroy us.
One of the first lessons we learn is to pretend something to get attention,
lying, to manipulate. Once we go down this road it is difficult to stop.
Now if Jesus could not save our hearts and straighten us out, what is the point
of the witness of the church, or walking in the light, or over overcoming sin, and
being a good example if we have overcome nothing.
So the heart must be capable of being purified and set true to God and righteousness.
us inside.
The more we justify ourselves and our sinful acts and intentions the more it will
decay and destroy us.
One of the first lessons we learn is to pretend something to get attention,
lying, to manipulate. Once we go down this road it is difficult to stop.
Now if Jesus could not save our hearts and straighten us out, what is the point
of the witness of the church, or walking in the light, or over overcoming sin, and
being a good example if we have overcome nothing.
So the heart must be capable of being purified and set true to God and righteousness.
S
I agree, except that the dead part is 'effectually' dead not actually dead. When the Bible says the wages of sin is death, it means just that, our body will eventually die just as everyone has since Adam and Eve. Adam did not die physically the day he sinned, he died physically as a result of sin many years later and that is always the context of death when mentioned in the New Testament as relating to sin. The human Spirit never dies.
I agree as I always had. But people are thinking I'm suggesting works save us. When nothing I posted has said that. I have said salvation comes through Grace and faith as gifts from God. We can never lose Grace. But true faith radiates light. It shows a true love for God. We have works we are commanded to do. Faith=salvation salvation=planned good works.
Ask this question. Do you believe you yourself can say no to God?
I know I do, too many times to selfishness and the free will to do so. Now if I remained in my rebellion my faith would no longer be True. I have the choice because we are not puppets. I would lose my salvation in the end if I stayed in rebellion and people would notice my place with God by my actions. If I Got mad at God one day and just said I'll do things my way, my faith will no longer be True, salvation would be on the line, and my actions would show the kinda faith I have.
Losing salvation is not permanent in less your dead. It can be regained by repentance and free will to follow God.
The debate is not between faith and works but rather between dead, useless faith and a living faith. Without works faith is only a shadow of what it should be.
True faith brings salvation and in that we should see good works.
Ask this question. Do you believe you yourself can say no to God?
I know I do, too many times to selfishness and the free will to do so. Now if I remained in my rebellion my faith would no longer be True. I have the choice because we are not puppets. I would lose my salvation in the end if I stayed in rebellion and people would notice my place with God by my actions. If I Got mad at God one day and just said I'll do things my way, my faith will no longer be True, salvation would be on the line, and my actions would show the kinda faith I have.
Losing salvation is not permanent in less your dead. It can be regained by repentance and free will to follow God.
The debate is not between faith and works but rather between dead, useless faith and a living faith. Without works faith is only a shadow of what it should be.
True faith brings salvation and in that we should see good works.
[h=1]Romans 2:6-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]6 He will repay each one according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;
We cannot be saved on just belief in Jesus. We are saved by a true relationship with Jesus. True salvation produces persistence in doing good to seek glory, honor, and immortality;
Now this affects saved but fallen away believers who return to unrightiousness, unbelievers, and as a warning to faithful servants of God.
but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 16:24Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Take Up Your Cross[/h][FONT="]24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.
In order to go with Jesus we must follow Jesus. Or we will be like the young ruler a man who likes the idea of following Jesus but is not willing to carry his own cross. He must realize his actions will not save him. But his faith in Jesus. But he keeps asking what else I must do to follow you.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:16-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Rich Young Ruler[/h][FONT="]16 Just then someone came up and asked Him, “Teacher, what good must I do to have eternal life?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”[a] He said to him. “There is only One who is good.[b] If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 “Which ones?” he asked Him. Jesus answered:[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="]Do not murder;
do not commit adultery;
do not steal;
do not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother;
and love your neighbor as yourself.[c][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 “I have kept all these,”[d] the young man told Him. “What do I still lack?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “If you want to be perfect,”[e] Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 When the young man heard that command, he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.[/FONT]
We cannot be saved on just belief in Jesus. We are saved by a true relationship with Jesus. True salvation produces persistence in doing good to seek glory, honor, and immortality;
Now this affects saved but fallen away believers who return to unrightiousness, unbelievers, and as a warning to faithful servants of God.
but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 16:24Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Take Up Your Cross[/h][FONT="]24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.
In order to go with Jesus we must follow Jesus. Or we will be like the young ruler a man who likes the idea of following Jesus but is not willing to carry his own cross. He must realize his actions will not save him. But his faith in Jesus. But he keeps asking what else I must do to follow you.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:16-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Rich Young Ruler[/h][FONT="]16 Just then someone came up and asked Him, “Teacher, what good must I do to have eternal life?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”[a] He said to him. “There is only One who is good.[b] If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 “Which ones?” he asked Him. Jesus answered:[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="]Do not murder;
do not commit adultery;
do not steal;
do not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother;
and love your neighbor as yourself.[c][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 “I have kept all these,”[d] the young man told Him. “What do I still lack?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 “If you want to be perfect,”[e] Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 When the young man heard that command, he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.[/FONT]
Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
I'm not putting works down, just clarifying that we are saved FOR good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:10). Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
I don't promote a license to sin either:
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
I'm not putting works down, just clarifying that we are saved FOR good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:10). Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
I don't promote a license to sin either:
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not
We cannot be saved on just mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus. The belief that saves trusts in Jesus for salvation (Acts 10:43; 16:31). Those who truly believe and are saved have entered a relationship with Jesus (John 1:12; 17:3).
Amen! This is descriptive of believers.
Where does the Bible say "lost salvation" or "un-born again?"
This is descriptive of unbelievers.
Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not
We cannot be saved on just mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus. The belief that saves trusts in Jesus for salvation (Acts 10:43; 16:31). Those who truly believe and are saved have entered a relationship with Jesus (John 1:12; 17:3).
Amen! This is descriptive of believers.
Where does the Bible say "lost salvation" or "un-born again?"
This is descriptive of unbelievers.