Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Notice my "reward" is with Me to repay each person according to what he has done. Now read 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
Descriptive of believers.
Few enter through the narrow gate which is through faith in Jesus Christ (John 10:9; 14:6).
Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit (bad tree) is descriptive of unbelievers.
Even though these many lost people said "Lord, Lord," they did not do the will of the Father. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. There is a big difference between simply saying Lord, Lord (lip service from those who Jesus NEVER knew) and truly saying that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
The people in Matthew 7:21-23 were UNBELIEVERS. Mere mental assent belief does not qualify as saving faith. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.
They practiced iniquity/lawlessness because they did not have saving faith in Christ. They were self righteous and trusted in THEIR WORKS!
Without faith it's impossible to please God, so all you have left is evildoers (their sin remains) no matter how many "so-called" good works they attempt to conjure up through the flesh and seek to be saved based on the merits of their works. There are many deceived people in the world today who may even be outwardly "religious" but they are not right with God because they trust in their works to save them and NOT in CHRIST ALONE.
Even though this rocky/shallow ground hearer is said to have received the word with joy (emotional response) yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me give you the reasons. First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving faith?
*IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. (All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful). Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly preapared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.
The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message and it becomes unfruitful", TNT. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation; "he becomes unfruitful", Rieu.
A.T. Robertson comments - Who has not seen the promise of fair flower and fruit choked into yellow withered stalk without fruit "as they go on their way" (poreuomenoi). Bring no fruit to perfection (outelesporousin). In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, Christ would have included such a scenario before concluding. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
There was motion, movement and growth toward becoming fruitful, but it was choked out before reaching it's desired goal (as the 4th soil reached it's desired goal of producing a crop) and instead, it became unfruitful, yields nothing, does not produce fruit. Just like the seed that fell on the stony soil, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth (it sprang up but no crop sprang up) and and because it had no root it withered away. (Mark 4:6) There was motion, movement and growth, unlike the seed that fell by the wayside, yet the condition changed from sprang up (although it did not yet reach it's desired goal) to withered away.
Hi Mailmandan,
I just saw this. I find it difficult to get back to my posts on this site...
I agree with all of the above. What you say here is very interesting and well put:
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
"John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. "
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
I'm well versed in the New Covenant. But what are you saying here? You see a difference between being a part of the vine to which Jesus gives life to us, the branches, and the Body of Christ? In both cases it is Jesus who is giving the life and maintaining those who are grafted onto the vine or who are members of the N.C.
Please comment.
Fran
The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.
The fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted. Faith without works is dead.
This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a servant does not mean necessarily that he is saved. The Jews are called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved (Isaiah 43:10).
Show me the specific words, "lost salvation" in the Bible.
In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Those who fail to remain/endure to the end demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
The same one's who endure to the end is descriptive language for the same one's who have truly been saved through faith.
Psalm 37:28 - For the LORD loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.
Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will confirm/keep you strong until the end, so that you will be blameless on the Day of our Lord Jesus the Messiah.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Again, in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).
The Unfruitful branch was removed because it was "externally" attached to Christ but not internally. It produced NO fruit (vs. 2) and DID NOT abide in Christ (vs. 6). As A.T. Robertson comments - there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh feron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably Jesus here refers to Judas.
Not every person who professes to be His disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower. A branch that bears no fruit is obviously a dead branch. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off. Though Judas was externally attached to the vine, he did not bear fruit or abide in Christ because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64; 71) unlike the remaining 11 disciples (John 13:10,11). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are cut off, as we saw with Judas.
Yes, as the work of God’s labor of love. His faith is not without works. I would offer to be careful on how the word faith is used and from which direction it comes from (not towards) . I think it is how we can hear the voice of God that does turn us towards Him.
Yes, by faith Christ planned to do His good works a labor of His love, that He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure . The faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God not by a work we could do but the work He finished, dying the second death in our place. .
Every time we deny Him in unbelief we are saying no. But because he finished all the work necessary for us to have eternal life ,He cannot deny Himself .If he has begun it he will finish it, as our confidence to the end..
Yes if you remain in unbelief having tasted of the things to come as a partaker it would show you never had the faith of Christ. ( Hebrew 6)
He calls those who he has given eternal life, that calling turn us so that then after we have been turned we can repent .No turning no true repentance. As always He must do the first work.The hearing of His faith.
Jeremiah defines true repentance, as gift
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; "for thou art the LORD my God".
Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Jer 31:18
Losing salvation is not permanent in less your dead. It can be regained by repentance and free will to follow God.
That would seem to represent those in Hebrews 6 who crucify the Lord of Glory over and over every-time they sin subjecting Him to public shame as if once was not enough. . Thinking repentance could come by a work we could do.
If it’s a free gift we cannot lose it. We can fall from His grace but the same grace turns us. There are many examples
Can’t separate faith from works any more than you could separate a body from the spirit essence of life . It I believe would be offering dead works as a work we offer towards Him not from Him.as described in Hebrews six.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No, It means we are dead in tresspasses and sin and must be made alive in christ. Adam died spiritually th emoment he sinned, we know that because the things of God were all of a sudden foolish to him, (he tried to hide, He lied, he blame shifted, He tried to hide his nakedness.. Spiritual separation (death) was instant. His body although, yes, died 900 some years later.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
don't assume everyone in are "true" believers.. That just is not so.
I stated my opinion, By the words you used, you were giving people a false hope. I was not judging anyone.
As an observation, Paul is keen to talk about the vine being the vine of the nation of God
Israel, into which we have been grafted.
This vine is very old and not just for the new covenant, but was established under the old
covenant and our brothers the prophets.
But some want to create a real divide between these stages of history in Gods people.
This is a mistake, clearly not supported by scripture.
Hi PJ
Yes, I'm aware of our being grafted in to the vine. The Jews were the real branches and those that are not Jewish are grafted in. This is first spoken of in Mathew 3:9-10 and then taken up in Romans 11:17-23... This also reminds me of the Wedding Banquet when the others are invited to the feast.
Could you please explain about the wanting of some to divide the two stages of history?
Are you referring to the O.C. and the N.C. and if one is superior to the other, or are you referring to something else?
Thanks.
Fran
Now this affects saved but fallen away believers who return to unrightiousness, unbelievers, and as a warning to faithful servants of God.
Where does the Bible say "lost salvation" or "un-born again?"
but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;
This is descriptive of unbehlievers.
It's according to if you personally believe that part of scripture and many others are only talking to non believers. Then you would be right. But your wrong even believers have the free choice to deny God. I have seen it and if anyone is honest we all seen hardcore Christians just fall off the path. They won't lose salvation on earth because it's a gift on earth. But if they didn't return to God at death the Bible teaches wrath.
I guess the question is do you believe me a believer in Christ one day out of free will if I gave into rebellion and seek personal selfish earthly things the rest of my life, I would see heaven?
Where does the Bible say "lost salvation" or "un-born again?"
but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;
This is descriptive of unbehlievers.
It's according to if you personally believe that part of scripture and many others are only talking to non believers. Then you would be right. But your wrong even believers have the free choice to deny God. I have seen it and if anyone is honest we all seen hardcore Christians just fall off the path. They won't lose salvation on earth because it's a gift on earth. But if they didn't return to God at death the Bible teaches wrath.
I guess the question is do you believe me a believer in Christ one day out of free will if I gave into rebellion and seek personal selfish earthly things the rest of my life, I would see heaven?
Roughsoul, we are to do good works. However, it is NOT good works that save us. Grace and faith save us. The good works do not..
Even if y'all are false believers what's wrong with saying obey God. Lol obviously I wouldn't be talking to unbelievers who don't know God.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
the question is. Would you? or could you?
I believe scripture is clear. You would not. nor could you
1 John 3
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8[/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
Anyone can that's the importance of free will. We would not need all the warnings against false teachers if it's okay to get sucked into their nonsense and still be saved
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I will have to go with John on this one
There is a reason we can not. Have you ever wondered why John would make bold statements.
I mean think, How could we possibly determine the children of the devil. based on John's words. If a christian or child of God can some how not practice righteousness?
Then again, How can he say a child of God can not practice sin, if he can do that very thing.
one of the warning of false teachers is some of them live in sin.. And we can tell because a child of God can not practice sin..If a child of God can live in sin, then we can not use that to determine who is a possible false teacher.
There are other signs too maybe we can look at them all in another thread? ..
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I do not know what that is, or what they believe.
I try not to follow men, or label people, I stopped that when I left the baptist church, and realized even in here, that never helps
Just tell me what you believe, and I will you what I believe. and hopefully we can learn from each other and decide.