Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[phil36]

I believe in Jesus, in His cross, in His sacrifice and His justification to forgive my sins.
I believe my faith is counted as righteousness and that I can by His grace walk righteously.

I am not a OSAS believer. So by your reconning am I saved or am I lost?
Is my unbelief in OSAS meaning I do not believe in Christ salvation?

I am interested today in your position, honestly verbalised, because you appear to be
implying you have changed your position.

Now I know you believe almost the same things as me, except for the amenian/calvanist
cross over, where we are more or less mirror images, lol.

I am not attacking you, I am enquiring where you stand.
I stand that all who call on Christ in faith are saved, amen, Praise the Lord.
And you show your calling by your walk. So no walk no calling.

I Know you are asking EG, but I hope you don't mind me answering.

Regarding what some call OSAS, (which I'm not a big fan of myself as it can infer that we do not need to persevere in the faith, I prefer the doctrine of 'perseverance of the saints'. it is not essential for ones salvation.

Although I believe that we have eternal assurance in Christ and we will falter and fall at times, Yet, it is not because of me that I am saved.

Now I am only referring to OSAS and the likes here.. there are certain doctrines that are essential to believe for it to be a belief in the truth. Debates are good but I would be very careful about saying a person is not saved on the basis of their view on OSAS.

I do take the view that those who don't hold to 'perseverance of the saints' and to a degree OSAS, hold a semi - pelagian view of soteriology. I think believe it to be in error, but that does not mean they are not saved. Full blown Pelagianism is a different matter altogether.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This debate is pointless for all who hearts are set in stone. Anyone can make scripture fit there biased opinions of it. And frankly you believe how you want and I believe how I want. It's my religious freedom. I see it as truth. To me all the scriptures talk as one not one verse but as a book.
I can post scripture and so can you. What does that prove? That's proves one of us doesn't look at all the scriptures.

Either way I'm going to follow God regardless. He says if I deny him then he will deny me. [h=1]Matthew 10:33New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.


[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

So when you say always comes as ministers, I didn't see that in the scripture

I show the "ministers of righteousness" scripture in post #534 above.

People always quote 1 Tim 4: 1 to show how bad people are deceived that don't believe the way that they do and that people are just "sinning all they want now" but the truth is the exact opposite of that belief as verses 3-5 show exactly what this falling away from the faith is.

The deceitful spirits are actually trying to get people to "do things" to create their own separateness and keep themselves holy from others by what "they do."

That is departing from the faith which is belief in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that salvation and righteousness is a free gift bought by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and this grace is accessed by faith only - not by what we do or don't do.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I Know you are asking EG, but I hope you don't mind me answering.

Regarding what some call OSAS, (which I'm not a big fan of myself as it can infer that we do not need to persevere in the faith, I prefer the doctrine of 'perseverance of the saints'. it is not essential for ones salvation.

Although I believe that we have eternal assurance in Christ and we will falter and fall at times, Yet, it is not because of me that I am saved.

Now I am only referring to OSAS and the likes here.. there are certain doctrines that are essential to believe for it to be a belief in the truth. Debates are good but I would be very careful about saying a person is not saved on the basis of their view on OSAS.

I do take the view that those who don't hold to 'perseverance of the saints' and to a degree OSAS, hold a semi - pelagian view of soteriology. I think believe it to be in error, but that does not mean they are not saved. Full blown Pelagianism is a different matter altogether.

The perseverance of the saints sounded good all the way until the end. It speaks of continuing in the faith but then at the bottom says we are against our free will because God doesn't let us fall away.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I liked phils post too. But had a problem with that part too...
I agree that it's not good to say saved/unsaved just based on OSAS/NOSAS. Because most men seem to me to actually believe OSAS but see some fractures in places...

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives that is needed to live the true Christian life.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[phil36]

The perseverance of the saints sounded good all the way until the end. It speaks of continuing in the faith but then at the bottom says we are against our free will because God doesn't let us fall away.

Hi Roughsoul1991, I fail to see were it says that 'we' are against our own free will. Salvation does not depend on man. Thankfully that is the case or no one would be saved.


II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;(b) upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;(c) the abiding of the Spirit,and of the seed of God within them;(d) and the nature of the covenant of grace ( e) from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.(f)

(b) II Tim. 2:18,19; Jer. 31:3.
(c) Heb. 10:10, 14; Heb.13:20, 21; Heb. 9:12, 13, 14, 15; Rom.8:33 to the end; John 17:11, 24; Luke 22:32; Heb.7:25.
(d) John 14:16, 17; I John 2:27; I John 3:9.
(e) Jer. 32:40.
(f) John 10:28; II Thess. 3:3; I John 2:19.




III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;(g) and, for a time, continue therein ( h) whereby they incur God’s displeasure,(i)and grieve His Holy Spirit,(k) come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,(l) have their hearts hardened,(m) and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others,(o) and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.(p)

(g) Matt.26:70, 72, 74.
(h) Ps. 51 title and ver. 14.
(i) Isa.64:5, 7, 9; II Sam. 11:27.
(k) Eph.4:30.
(l) Ps. 51:8, 10, 12; Rev. 2:4; Cant.5:2, 3, 4, 6.
(m) Isa. 63:17; Mark 6:52; Mark16:14.
Ps. 32:3, 4; Ps. 51:8.
(o) II Sam.12:14.
(p) Ps. 89:31, 32; I Cor. 11:32.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I liked phils post too. But had a problem with that part too...
I agree that it's not good to say saved/unsaved just based on OSAS/NOSAS. Because most men seem to me to actually believe OSAS but see some fractures in places...

The whole Tulip concept is bogus but the first part is true.Total Depravity:Humankind has been utterly ruined by the Fall to the point that there is no good and no possibility for redemption anywhere in us. We merit and can merit nothing but wrath and destruction. This means that only a Sovereign God acting in Sovereignty can deliver us from an eternal destiny in Hell. There is absolutely nothing we can do ourselves to contribute to or take away from God's activity to save us.
Unconditional Election:
As such, God's decision to save us can be and is based on no conditions we can or could ever generate. God has chosen, based on God's own criteria, whom to save and whom not to save, long before we were ever born.
Limited Atonement:
God created the means to deliver us from the merited consequences of our total depravity through the death of Jesus, his Son, on the cross. On the cross, Jesus suffered the consequences of God's just wrath and judgment on behalf of all whom God had elected for salvation, but only for these.
Irresistible Grace: Just as there is nothing humanity can to do change our depraved state, there is also nothing those who have been elect can do to resist the gracious initiative and power of God to bring them to salvation through what God had accomplished for them in the atonement.
Perseverance of the Saints: The result of all the above is that those whom God has elected to salvation and acted to save in the atonement and in the ongoing and irresistible work of the Spirit cannot but actually "persevere unto the end," that is, those who are elect cannot help but be faithful and thus experience the promised salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This debate is pointless for all who hearts are set in stone. Anyone can make scripture fit there biased opinions of it. And frankly you believe how you want and I believe how I want. It's my religious freedom. I see it as truth. To me all the scriptures talk as one not one verse but as a book.
I can post scripture and so can you. What does that prove? That's proves one of us doesn't look at all the scriptures.

Either way I'm going to follow God regardless. He says if I deny him then he will deny me. Matthew 10:33New International Version (NIV)

33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

That's pretty rude, And I would agree, it is pointless if we will not at least listen to what others have to say. Which goes both ways. Would you not agree? (And why I said it is rude. It is an argument which is really not supportive of anything.. BNoth parties could use the argument, thus it is a straw man.

As for your post. Peter denied Jesus 3 times,. Did Peter lose his salvation? When did Jesus tell Peter to repent? Why do people always want to stick to as few verses. And not stick to the whole of sc rupture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I Know you are asking EG, but I hope you don't mind me answering.

Regarding what some call OSAS, (which I'm not a big fan of myself as it can infer that we do not need to persevere in the faith, I prefer the doctrine of 'perseverance of the saints'. it is not essential for ones salvation.

Although I believe that we have eternal assurance in Christ and we will falter and fall at times, Yet, it is not because of me that I am saved.

Now I am only referring to OSAS and the likes here.. there are certain doctrines that are essential to believe for it to be a belief in the truth. Debates are good but I would be very careful about saying a person is not saved on the basis of their view on OSAS.

I do take the view that those who don't hold to 'perseverance of the saints' and to a degree OSAS, hold a semi - pelagian view of soteriology. I think believe it to be in error, but that does not mean they are not saved. Full blown Pelagianism is a different matter altogether.

EG has Peter on ignore. He never wants to discuss anything. So I will not be responding to his questions.

I ask not sure what plagiarism means.. Maybe we can just spell it out/ I am sure many do not understand what it means, and maybe that could be the cause of some of the frustration. We. Think we know that they believe, but in reality we do not?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi Roughsoul1991, I fail to see were it says that 'we' are against our own free will. Salvation does not depend on man. Thankfully that is the case or no one would be saved.


II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;(b) upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;(c) the abiding of the Spirit,and of the seed of God within them;(d) and the nature of the covenant of grace ( e) from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.(f)

(b) II Tim. 2:18,19; Jer. 31:3.
(c) Heb. 10:10, 14; Heb.13:20, 21; Heb. 9:12, 13, 14, 15; Rom.8:33 to the end; John 17:11, 24; Luke 22:32; Heb.7:25.
(d) John 14:16, 17; I John 2:27; I John 3:9.
(e) Jer. 32:40.
(f) John 10:28; II Thess. 3:3; I John 2:19.




III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;(g) and, for a time, continue therein ( h) whereby they incur God’s displeasure,(i)and grieve His Holy Spirit,(k) come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,(l) have their hearts hardened,(m) and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others,(o) and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.(p)

(g) Matt.26:70, 72, 74.
(h) Ps. 51 title and ver. 14.
(i) Isa.64:5, 7, 9; II Sam. 11:27.
(k) Eph.4:30.
(l) Ps. 51:8, 10, 12; Rev. 2:4; Cant.5:2, 3, 4, 6.
(m) Isa. 63:17; Mark 6:52; Mark16:14.
Ps. 32:3, 4; Ps. 51:8.
(o) II Sam.12:14.
(p) Ps. 89:31, 32; I Cor. 11:32.

Basically it's saying only a few are elected but we know Jesus died for All. He chose to save all but once people have heard of Jesus. They are held accountable to what truly do with that information

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The perseverance of the saints sounded good all the way until the end. It speaks of continuing in the faith but then at the bottom says we are against our free will because God doesn't let us fall away.

That assumes anyone would want you to walk away.

either way, God says he would never let go of us. So it could be said, Yes, he would never let us fall away in a sense, that he will never let HIS CHILDREN fall away.. Not sure how this would be a bad thing, Would you let your children fall? I would hope not.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ah...is this tulip what they call...Calvinsism? I've heard of it but never really seen it spelled out...
The problem with it in my mind is that half the NT is of no account and written for no reason then.
What of all the warnings in it? Who are they for? Certainly not for those who believe in this tulip...and then they are useless for anyone else...so who would the warnings be for?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I liked phils post too. But had a problem with that part too...
I agree that it's not good to say saved/unsaved just based on OSAS/NOSAS. Because most men seem to me to actually believe OSAS but see some fractures in places...

I agree.. In fact I am starting to hate the term OSAS.. People see the term, and sadly I feel do not understand all that it means. That's why we get so many views.

 

[PrynceNY]

That's pretty rude, And I would agree, it is pointless if we will not at least listen to what others have to say. Which goes both ways. Would you not agree? (And why I said it is rude. It is an argument which is really not supportive of anything.. BNoth parties could use the argument, thus it is a straw man. As for your post. Peter denied Jesus 3 times,. Did Peter lose his salvation? When did Jesus tell Peter to repent? Why do people always want to stick to as few verses. And not stick to the whole of sc rupture.

I don't think i'd use peter as an example. The Lord told him to do that he didn't willingly do it out of his heart. But generally speaking repenting & asking for forgiveness isn't a 1 time thing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The whole Tulip concept is bogus but the first part is true.Total Depravity:Humankind has been utterly ruined by the Fall to the point that there is no good and no possibility for redemption anywhere in us. We merit and can merit nothing but wrath and destruction. This means that only a Sovereign God acting in Sovereignty can deliver us from an eternal destiny in Hell. There is absolutely nothing we can do ourselves to contribute to or take away from God's activity to save us.
Unconditional Election:
As such, God's decision to save us can be and is based on no conditions we can or could ever generate. God has chosen, based on God's own criteria, whom to save and whom not to save, long before we were ever born.
Limited Atonement:
God created the means to deliver us from the merited consequences of our total depravity through the death of Jesus, his Son, on the cross. On the cross, Jesus suffered the consequences of God's just wrath and judgment on behalf of all whom God had elected for salvation, but only for these.
Irresistible Grace: Just as there is nothing humanity can to do change our depraved state, there is also nothing those who have been elect can do to resist the gracious initiative and power of God to bring them to salvation through what God had accomplished for them in the atonement.
Perseverance of the Saints: The result of all the above is that those whom God has elected to salvation and acted to save in the atonement and in the ongoing and irresistible work of the Spirit cannot but actually "persevere unto the end," that is, those who are elect cannot help but be faithful and thus experience the promised salvation.

I agree on almost all you have said here,

It is just as bogus as Arminians view. There are issues with both./

Thats why I think it is dangerous to follow men, and sit down and try to figure out what GFod actually said.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

That's pretty rude, And I would agree, it is pointless if we will not at least listen to what others have to say. Which goes both ways. Would you not agree? (And why I said it is rude. It is an argument which is really not supportive of anything.. BNoth parties could use the argument, thus it is a straw man.

As for your post. Peter denied Jesus 3 times,. Did Peter lose his salvation? When did Jesus tell Peter to repent? Why do people always want to stick to as few verses. And not stick to the whole of sc rupture.

Because Peter returned from his falling moment.
And you do the same with scripture.

And no I have listened to a few of you and you have stated the same things over and over. The scripture I post goes hand in hand with hall's. And to be honest Peter's denial was not a heart problem like the verse is referring to. His was a mind problem as in he didn't want to die. Deny God in your heart and he will deny you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think i'd use peter as an example. The Lord told him to do that he didn't willingly do it out of his heart. But generally speaking repenting & asking for forgiveness isn't a 1 time thing

What is to say than anyone who Denys God does it willingly out of their heart.

Petere did it because he was scared. He thought he would be arrested to. His faith was weak. Jesus correct red him later. When he told him to feed his sheep.

Who, who has true saving faith out of a true repentant heart would ever deny God. Who saved them? That is what I would like to know.

Joh said if a person becomes an antichrist (one who Denys Christ) they were never saved, so using this to say one can LOSE salvation goes against what the apostle John said to begin with. Does it not?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I agree on almost all you have said here,

It is just as bogus as Arminians view. There are issues with both./

Thats why I think it is dangerous to follow men, and sit down and try to figure out what GFod actually said.

I agree and I'm about to the point and say you do your way, I'll do my way lol. We will see who's wrong one day.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus and the apostles never talked about in terms of "once saved always saved" nor did they talk about "one losing their salvation" as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord. They talked about life. God's quality of life - immortal life.

Once we are "in Christ" we can experience God's quality of life by living by faith in what Christ has already done and we inherit or manifest in our lives this quality of life by faith and patience in God's promises to us that are in Christ.

People see the warning scriptures that talk about destruction coming ( start shooting heroin in your arms today and that destruction will come quick ) by walking in the flesh and they think "hell" and God kicking them out of being a child of God.

How do we get destroyed while on this earth and in these bodies - by not participating in God's quality of life that is in Christ and we get that by walking by the spirit - the new creation that is in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.