Tongues Again???
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Was not one of the last mentions about tongues its abuse? And personal experience should never be used as a doctrine so to speak, God wills including his gift will never go beyond his word. Tongues was the least of gifts it was not unknown, and d vanish from church records all around the world for almost 500 years, i find that interesting myself but i dont find where the gift is mentioned as demonic either
I think she meant, "potentially can be". I documented in my personal, lengthy study of Charismatic Tongues; where two incidences, a couple decades apart, happened when a lady in the Charismatic Congregation, (one was the wife of that Church's Pastor), were actually cursing at someone else in attendance, in a rare foreign language that the Hearer had learned years before. One was a rare African language, heard by a guest missionary that had worked with that tribe, and the other was a rare native american language from a small, remote village in the mountains in the southwest part of the USA; and the hearer was a Forestry Service worker, who has spent a couple years with that tribe, on a lengthy Forestry Service project. In both cases NO ONE in those two Congregations would believe that is what had happened, INCLUDING the Pastors themselves when the incidence was reported.
That was also one of the problems the Corinthian Church was having with counterfeit tongues sneaking it's way into the Church. AND STILL today, Charismatics REFUSE it really happened:
1 Corinthians 12:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
I dare say that I believe the vast majority of Charismatics CANNOT tell the difference between pagan Tongues speaking and what the Charismatics have been doing all along.
What Pagans and Cults have been known to speak in Tongues?:
Hinduism, especially those that teach the Kundalini Awakening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs&t=368s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7btmP7mOjAg
WARNING there are plenty of videos where on YouTube where Hindu Gurus are teaching their followers how to awaken their Kundalini powers, which in reality are empowerd by demons.
Hasidic Judaism,
Muslims,
Mormons,
Greek and Roman Mystery Religions
Paganism,
Shamanism,
Voodoo,
Spiritism,
Gnosticism,
etc.
{quote}
In Japan, the God Light Association believed that glossolalia could cause adherents to recall past lives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
And I repeat: I dare say that I believe the vast majority of Charismatics CANNOT tell the difference between pagan Tongues speaking and what the Charismatics have been doing all along.
That was also one of the problems the Corinthian Church was having with counterfeit tongues sneaking it's way into the Church. AND STILL today, Charismatics REFUSE it really happened:
1 Corinthians 12:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
I dare say that I believe the vast majority of Charismatics CANNOT tell the difference between pagan Tongues speaking and what the Charismatics have been doing all along.
What Pagans and Cults have been known to speak in Tongues?:
Hinduism, especially those that teach the Kundalini Awakening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs&t=368s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7btmP7mOjAg
WARNING there are plenty of videos where on YouTube where Hindu Gurus are teaching their followers how to awaken their Kundalini powers, which in reality are empowerd by demons.
Hasidic Judaism,
Muslims,
Mormons,
Greek and Roman Mystery Religions
Paganism,
Shamanism,
Voodoo,
Spiritism,
Gnosticism,
etc.
{quote}
In Japan, the God Light Association believed that glossolalia could cause adherents to recall past lives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
And I repeat: I dare say that I believe the vast majority of Charismatics CANNOT tell the difference between pagan Tongues speaking and what the Charismatics have been doing all along.
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Paul was to say the least a unique individual. Paul never claimed that he spoke with unknowable tongues. Paul using hyperbole said that even if he spoke with the tongues of angels and had no charity he would be as clanging brass.
No Paul was very well educated. Paul knew Hebrew, Latin and Greek so he had a command of many languages in his day. There is no evidence that Paul ever spoke in ecstatic utterances. Since Paul is writing a letter of correction to the Corinthians I imagine he would be quite disturbed by what goes on in the modern charismatic and Pentecostal circles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That is no evidence that Paul spoke in ecstatic utterances. Paul was likely the best educated of the apostles. Paul would have known the major languages in use at the time. Paul was also an apostle and had the apostolic gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Paul under Holy Spirit penned much of the NT scriptures.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The bible says Paul said in 1Cor 14:18 " [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" He was saying as the Greek explain it " speak "[/FONT]glōssa"
( [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations).
your presupposition of Paul's education was what he was speaking about would not even fit the contextual meaning of 1 cor chapter 12, 13, 14 when Paul is very Clear he was speaking about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12: 4. The word Gifts has to do within context to what is Produced through The Holy Spirit not mans education if it was Paul education that he was speaking in then why would he say it was a gift from God? the Word Gift here in 1 cor 12 is :
[/FONT]grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]
And Paul was an Apostle who did have apostolic Gifts of The Holy Spirit yes amen BUT 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians were not written to for the instructions of Apostles . They as were all of the Epistles written to the Gentile Churches and christian believers. I am sure apostles were included but if that was the main reason why Paul wrote these letters DID did not say that did he what did Paul say who he was writing to?
! Cor 1: 2 "[/FONT]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:".[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]
The Context of Corinthians doesn't agree with your position.
[/FONT]
( [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations).
your presupposition of Paul's education was what he was speaking about would not even fit the contextual meaning of 1 cor chapter 12, 13, 14 when Paul is very Clear he was speaking about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12: 4. The word Gifts has to do within context to what is Produced through The Holy Spirit not mans education if it was Paul education that he was speaking in then why would he say it was a gift from God? the Word Gift here in 1 cor 12 is :
[/FONT]grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]
And Paul was an Apostle who did have apostolic Gifts of The Holy Spirit yes amen BUT 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians were not written to for the instructions of Apostles . They as were all of the Epistles written to the Gentile Churches and christian believers. I am sure apostles were included but if that was the main reason why Paul wrote these letters DID did not say that did he what did Paul say who he was writing to?
! Cor 1: 2 "[/FONT]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:".[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]
The Context of Corinthians doesn't agree with your position.
[/FONT]
The premise of the post I was responding to was that tongues are not ecstatic utterances as in gibberish. Paul being multi lingual does not diminish his ability to communicate the gospel to many peoples from different nations. History teaches that Corinth was a crossroads and many people from the surrounding nations passed through the city.
You may object to it being limited in duration and to the apostolic time but that is in essence a separate discussion.
All service in the church is by the power of the Holy Spirit residing in the believer. Romans chapter 12:1-8 points to this example.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You may object to it being limited in duration and to the apostolic time but that is in essence a separate discussion.
All service in the church is by the power of the Holy Spirit residing in the believer. Romans chapter 12:1-8 points to this example.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
yes
but the context to what He Paul was saying clearly there is no way it was limited to "in duration and to the apostolic time "
because Paul was not speaking to those who held an apostolic Office the instruction was to the early Church the topic of chapter 12, 13, 14 was the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I do not object, the word of god doesn't say that.
but the context to what He Paul was saying clearly there is no way it was limited to "in duration and to the apostolic time "
because Paul was not speaking to those who held an apostolic Office the instruction was to the early Church the topic of chapter 12, 13, 14 was the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I do not object, the word of god doesn't say that.
Paul held the office. The church at Corinth was a church to whom Paul was writing a letter of admonition to correct problems not a letter of commendation.
Some gifts of the Holy Spirit are operational gifts. Romans 12 is a good example of this. Ephesians 4:11 gives a list of men given to the church as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
We err if we look at the gifts of 1 Cor 12-14 only through 1 Corinthians.
We disagree on the limited duration of three gifts as noted in 1 Cor 13:8. All the other gifts continue and are in fact necessary for the church to function in evangelism and discipleship.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Some gifts of the Holy Spirit are operational gifts. Romans 12 is a good example of this. Ephesians 4:11 gives a list of men given to the church as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
We err if we look at the gifts of 1 Cor 12-14 only through 1 Corinthians.
We disagree on the limited duration of three gifts as noted in 1 Cor 13:8. All the other gifts continue and are in fact necessary for the church to function in evangelism and discipleship.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
correction not removal of the gifts the context is very clear. and many here have used more than just 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 the reason why these three chapters are used is because the contextual meaning of the chapters is in context " The Gifts of the Holy Spirit. And no where in the new testament state they are not for today or have ceased. The verse you are using in chp 13: 8 is not the full context of the chapter or with the gift of tongues or Prophecies :
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] knowledge, it shall vanish away." [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]you would have to remove ever other verse after verse 8 in chapter 13 and forget what was said in chapter 12. The error is suggesting the gifts anyone them are not for today because no where in context to the Whole New testament says that
you have only one verse you use to say that tongues are done away with yet say one is in error using three chapters ?
Something is wrong there I think . [/FONT]
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] knowledge, it shall vanish away." [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]you would have to remove ever other verse after verse 8 in chapter 13 and forget what was said in chapter 12. The error is suggesting the gifts anyone them are not for today because no where in context to the Whole New testament says that
you have only one verse you use to say that tongues are done away with yet say one is in error using three chapters ?
Something is wrong there I think . [/FONT]
Well only here do we find Paul having to address the misuse of tongues. I do not see the gifts of the Holy Spirit causing problems in the other churches in the NT.
These three chapters in 1 Corinthians must be in harmony with the other passages in the NT. We cannot understand them in isolation.
Something I'll need to think about is why this problem was not addressed in any of the other churches. I mean that tongues are fairly widespread in their appearances in the book of Acts. Only at Corinth do we find gross immorality, we find abuse of the Lords table of communion and of course tongues.
In 1 Cor 14 Paul says that he would rather that they all prophecy. Do you know that at this time preaching like we do in our local churches is not what they did? They got up and read the scriptures. This was prophecy and is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 14. They got up and read the scriptures speaking forth the word of God which is prophecy. Of course this was mostly OT scriptures since the NT was not yet fully given. Just a random thought.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
These three chapters in 1 Corinthians must be in harmony with the other passages in the NT. We cannot understand them in isolation.
Something I'll need to think about is why this problem was not addressed in any of the other churches. I mean that tongues are fairly widespread in their appearances in the book of Acts. Only at Corinth do we find gross immorality, we find abuse of the Lords table of communion and of course tongues.
In 1 Cor 14 Paul says that he would rather that they all prophecy. Do you know that at this time preaching like we do in our local churches is not what they did? They got up and read the scriptures. This was prophecy and is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 14. They got up and read the scriptures speaking forth the word of God which is prophecy. Of course this was mostly OT scriptures since the NT was not yet fully given. Just a random thought.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I would agree with that statement. One of the problems with the particular interpretation you hold to of I Corinthians 13 is that you totally interject an idea that doesn't show up in the book, that doesn't show up in Paul's theology in the New Testament into the text. If we look at the same epistle, Paul says earlier, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The outpouring of the gift of prophecy is for 'the last days' as Peter interpreted Joel.
Then the dispensationalists who see the two witnesses as two end-time individuals who hold to your view also have to do away with the gift of prophecy and then restart it again. If it ceased why would it exist at the very end of the last days? If Peter interprets Joel to refer to his own time as 'the last day's' and the gift of prophecy is active at the end of 'the last days', then why would one say that the perfect has already come and argue that the gift of prophecy had ceased? It makes no sense to get rid of the gift altogether it and start it back up again. It doesn't make logical sense and that idea doesn't fit with the teaching of scripture either. It doesn't fit with the record we have of church history, either.
I don't see how your random thought fits with the interpretation of I Corinthians 13 that you have been promoting. If reading scripture is prophesying, why would the gift of prophecy have ceased? It's a rather arbitrary redefinition of the term.
Old Testament priests who taught the Law were teaching. The Bible doesn't say they were prophesying. Moses prophesied the law, and others later taught it. Ezra read the Law. Haggai and Zechariah prophesied.
Here are some quotes from Ezra in the NIV.
5
1 Now Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the prophet, a descendant of Iddo, prophesied to the Jews in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, who was over them.
4:6 a
6 this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the Lord, the God of Israel, had given.
6:10
10 For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the Lord, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel.
Then the dispensationalists who see the two witnesses as two end-time individuals who hold to your view also have to do away with the gift of prophecy and then restart it again. If it ceased why would it exist at the very end of the last days? If Peter interprets Joel to refer to his own time as 'the last day's' and the gift of prophecy is active at the end of 'the last days', then why would one say that the perfect has already come and argue that the gift of prophecy had ceased? It makes no sense to get rid of the gift altogether it and start it back up again. It doesn't make logical sense and that idea doesn't fit with the teaching of scripture either. It doesn't fit with the record we have of church history, either.
I don't see how your random thought fits with the interpretation of I Corinthians 13 that you have been promoting. If reading scripture is prophesying, why would the gift of prophecy have ceased? It's a rather arbitrary redefinition of the term.
Old Testament priests who taught the Law were teaching. The Bible doesn't say they were prophesying. Moses prophesied the law, and others later taught it. Ezra read the Law. Haggai and Zechariah prophesied.
Here are some quotes from Ezra in the NIV.
5
1 Now Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the prophet, a descendant of Iddo, prophesied to the Jews in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, who was over them.
4:6 a
6 this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the Lord, the God of Israel, had given.
6:10
10 For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the Lord, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel.