Is it a sin to strive to "be like the most high God"?
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Hey Phil,
Here is the background of Job. Well..that's what some people think whether it's entirely true or not??? It is one of the oldest books in the bible for sure and could have been written before Moses was around too. Here is one commentary about it.
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The book of Job is a very important but very misunderstood book. People often quote, as truth, passages from the sayings of Job and his three friends that the Lord said were wrong (Job 42:7). I believe Elihu is the one who wrote this book (see my note at Job 32:17).
That means the reliable parts of this story are the three chapters of total narrative (Job 1, 2, and 42), the six chapters that Elihu spoke (Job 32-37), and the four chapters that God spoke (Job 38-41). Certainly, there was some truth in the things Job and his three friends spoke, but there was also error. We need to use judgment when quoting them.
Most scholars believe that the time in which Job lived was probably before the time of Moses, since there is not a single reference to the Law of the Lord.
They also believe this took place before the time of Abraham because there is no mention of anything suggesting God’s covenant people in this book. But Genesis 25:3 mentions one of Abraham’s grandsons being called Sheba. Some scholars believe Sheba became the father of the Sabeans, who attacked Job’s servants and took his livestock.
So, if we were arranging the book of Job chronologically, it would come somewhere before the twelfth chapter of Genesis or, certainly, before the book of Exodus. There was a man named Uz who was a grandson of Shem, Noah’s son. Supposing the land of Uz was named after Noah’s great-grandson, then the time of this account would be between Genesis 10 and 12. Others have thought Uz was the Huz of Genesis 22:20-21 (see my note at Genesis 22:21).
There isn’t any consensus as to where the land of Uz was. Most agree it was in the Middle East.
Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.
I actually just finished reading the book of Job in a chronological bible and this is where they put it too.
Here is the background of Job. Well..that's what some people think whether it's entirely true or not??? It is one of the oldest books in the bible for sure and could have been written before Moses was around too. Here is one commentary about it.
Quote:
The book of Job is a very important but very misunderstood book. People often quote, as truth, passages from the sayings of Job and his three friends that the Lord said were wrong (Job 42:7). I believe Elihu is the one who wrote this book (see my note at Job 32:17).
That means the reliable parts of this story are the three chapters of total narrative (Job 1, 2, and 42), the six chapters that Elihu spoke (Job 32-37), and the four chapters that God spoke (Job 38-41). Certainly, there was some truth in the things Job and his three friends spoke, but there was also error. We need to use judgment when quoting them.
Most scholars believe that the time in which Job lived was probably before the time of Moses, since there is not a single reference to the Law of the Lord.
They also believe this took place before the time of Abraham because there is no mention of anything suggesting God’s covenant people in this book. But Genesis 25:3 mentions one of Abraham’s grandsons being called Sheba. Some scholars believe Sheba became the father of the Sabeans, who attacked Job’s servants and took his livestock.
So, if we were arranging the book of Job chronologically, it would come somewhere before the twelfth chapter of Genesis or, certainly, before the book of Exodus. There was a man named Uz who was a grandson of Shem, Noah’s son. Supposing the land of Uz was named after Noah’s great-grandson, then the time of this account would be between Genesis 10 and 12. Others have thought Uz was the Huz of Genesis 22:20-21 (see my note at Genesis 22:21).
There isn’t any consensus as to where the land of Uz was. Most agree it was in the Middle East.
Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.
I actually just finished reading the book of Job in a chronological bible and this is where they put it too.
There is no real consensus on when Job was written. The historical setting certainly alludes to possibly a patriarchal time frame. But as to the actul dating of Job there is no real consesus. I think Adrian wommack, has some proving to do - which to be honest will be extremely difficult to do.
I personally favour an early writing period, however there are difficulties. The writer of Job seems to have known scripture compare the following. Psalm 8:4; cf job 7:17-18 and for a direct quote Ps 107:40; Isa 41:20; cf Job 12:21;12:9 ant good cross reference bible will show you these. It seems the writer had access to these writings. Yet know one can ascertain in what form.
The first reference we have of Job outside of the book of Job is in Ezekiel. Here Ezekiel tells us of Job being a righteous man. However, we do not know how Ezekiel knew about Job.. Ezekiel written around 593 BC... some date Job to the exile period or after it 587 - 538 and after 538 respectively. (this is a huge topic ). Personally I believe it to be of an early date and that it was updated later possibly exilic period and that would explain the use of other writings and the (apparently later Hebrew sayings- language). I remember studying this when doing theology.
But putting the dating issue of Job aside it still does answer your statement:
Well - the book of Job was written in Abraham's time period when they didn't have much knowledge of God and had no covenants with God.
I personally favour an early writing period, however there are difficulties. The writer of Job seems to have known scripture compare the following. Psalm 8:4; cf job 7:17-18 and for a direct quote Ps 107:40; Isa 41:20; cf Job 12:21;12:9 ant good cross reference bible will show you these. It seems the writer had access to these writings. Yet know one can ascertain in what form.
The first reference we have of Job outside of the book of Job is in Ezekiel. Here Ezekiel tells us of Job being a righteous man. However, we do not know how Ezekiel knew about Job.. Ezekiel written around 593 BC... some date Job to the exile period or after it 587 - 538 and after 538 respectively. (this is a huge topic ). Personally I believe it to be of an early date and that it was updated later possibly exilic period and that would explain the use of other writings and the (apparently later Hebrew sayings- language). I remember studying this when doing theology.
But putting the dating issue of Job aside it still does answer your statement:
Well - the book of Job was written in Abraham's time period when they didn't have much knowledge of God and had no covenants with God.
Interesting. I think too that the dating is earlier. Thanks for the cross referencing ones.
Well, it's obvious that back then they didn't have much knowledge of God like we do now - especially since Jesus has come and shown us the true nature of the Father. Heb 1:1-3
Even God Himself told Job that he had inaccurate knowledge of Him. God said that his 3 friends all spoke things that were not true too. So, their common knowledge of God back in Job's day was very crude. It looks that way just from reading the text.
Job 38:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
Job repented and agreed with God that he had no accurate knowledge of God Himself. When we believe in what God says - God attributes that to being righteous.
Job 42:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then Job answered the LORD and said,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] 'Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
( here Job is saying that he had heard things about God but now that he sees God for who He is - he retracts what the has said and believed and repents. What Job had heard about God was inaccurate )
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes." I love how the end of Job is as it shows the true nature of our loving Father towards us.
As far as having no covenants - what covenants did Job have with God then? The only covenant recorded with man was the Noahic one after the flood. Job being in the time of Abraham was not in on his covenant, nor was he part of the Mosasic one nor was he in the New Covenant as a believer joined as one spirit with the Lord.
Good chatting with you Phil - I learned some things about Job from looking at it more closely.
Now I can say the same thing Job said - "I have heard things about God that were not accurate and now I see Him for who He truly is and I too repent."
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Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
If Job could be perfect under the old covenant, why can't we under the new with the help of the Spirit?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What happened to know1? All I'm hearing is crickets. People who abuse Matthew 5:48 to teach sinless perfection also abuse John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection as well. Jesus was telling this woman to go and leave her life of sin. She had been practicing adultery. Sinless perfection is not being taught here either, yet Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "just go and sin a little bit."
This is a total contradiction.
You cannot say Jesus did not mean live by his perfect holy standard, except he
said live without sin. They are the same thing.
This is what it means to be double minded, or excusing away a hard statement.
Righteousness is not hard if your heart is full of love to others through Christ.
If your conscience condemns you go to the cross and find release.
You cannot say Jesus did not mean live by his perfect holy standard, except he
said live without sin. They are the same thing.
This is what it means to be double minded, or excusing away a hard statement.
Righteousness is not hard if your heart is full of love to others through Christ.
If your conscience condemns you go to the cross and find release.
Hi grace777,
There are couple of things to note about what you have said. First regarding Jobs knowledge of God. here's what you said:
This is not accurate. Job had knowledge of God and believed in God.. yes he was in error about his understanding of God's sovereignty and infinite perfection, but that is not the same as having no accurate knowledge of God! You say when 'we' believe what God say's - God attributes that to being righteous. I can only guess that you are ignoring what God says of Job to fit your presuppositions. we need to remind ourselves of what God said about Job:
"There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil, (Job 1:8b)."
and
"Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason, (Job 2:3)."
So by your very own reasoning Job had knowledge of God for he was a righteous man. Yes, he never had knowledge of Jesus, but if that is your prerequisite for anyone being righteous before Jesus, then no one in the OT is saved. That is were your line of thought leads and of course we know that is wrong. Also if you think that one has to have accurate knowledge of God to be reckoned righteous then you are mistaken.. having an accurate knowledge of God is not prerequisite to being deemed righteous. We like Job still only know what God has revealed and I am sure we all get it wrong at times and have to repent..just like Job.
Abraham did not know about Jesus or His teachings and yet He was righteous in God's eyes, are you saying the great man of Faith in the covenant of grace Abraham had no accurate knowledge of God. By your comments above that would be the conclusion of your argument and it is erroneous.
Regarding covenants, I believe you get this wrong for you seem to want to place Job early in the primeval history, with no evidence of that time frame. Even at that he would have been within what we call the Adamic covenant, and certainly within the Noahic covenant. The main consensus is hat Job was based in the time around Abraham (doesn't mean it was written then, just like Genesis was't wasn't written at the time of the events). We have to remember here that even the siniatic covenant was grace. Why do I say that...Job offered sacrifices to God as the head of the family for his children - why would he do that if he had no accurate knowledge of God..unless you think he was just a pagan and an unbeliever?
Here is another faulty assumption:
Yes Jobs 3 friends gave inaccurate advice. Job was reprimanded by God for thinking he could counsel God on what was right, for there were things that Job knew and didn't know, Job was certainly a believer.:
And he said to the human race,“The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,and to shun evil is understanding.” Job 28:28 (answering the question were does wisdom come from...is a wisdom book!).
I would say beware of thinking you have all sorted and accurate because we now live in the new covenant..remember God's redeeming people has always been by grace, they may have had less knowledge than we have regarding God in Christ, but they were not second class and crude. It was God good mercy, wisdom and for His own glory that He only revealed what he did to those of Old. He revealed even more to Job at the end.. and yet still never answered 'why'. God's providence in redemptive history has been progressive for his own purposes and to his own glory.. you look down your nose at this at your own peril. It may well be that you do not have an ''accurate knowledge of God''!
Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness to him. This has been the way since man came into being.
Romans 4:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
What I am saying Phil is that man has had some knowledge of God in some form or other and it has been getting progressive all through the ages as God has revealed Himself.
This ends with the Lord Jesus Christ as He has come to reveal God as Father. Jesus said no one knows the Father but the Son and He has revealed Him.
Jesus is perfect theology. He came to do the will of the Father and to reveal the exact representation of that nature. As Hebrews points out that God in times past in many ways and portions spoke to us BUT in these last days speaks to us through His Son.
Any "perception" we have of God from the OT that conflicts with the revealed nature of God as show in Christ's life on this earth will be inaccurate.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[SUP]2[/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
So, if we want to see the Father's view of people both sinners and religious looking ones - look to how Jesus interacted with them while on this earth
If we want to see how God disciplines His children - look to see how Jesus disciplined His disciples.
If we want to see the Father's view of healing, grace and wholeness towards people - look to see what Jesus did when on this earth.
I know for a fact that none of us know the Lord with accurate knowledge but the Holy Spirit is revealing Christ to us and He is the exact representation of the Father's will for people and of His nature. With that knowledge we can trust the Holy Spirit to do His job as we are willing to repent and agree with what God says about things as revealed through His Son - our Lord.
Romans 4:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
What I am saying Phil is that man has had some knowledge of God in some form or other and it has been getting progressive all through the ages as God has revealed Himself.
This ends with the Lord Jesus Christ as He has come to reveal God as Father. Jesus said no one knows the Father but the Son and He has revealed Him.
Jesus is perfect theology. He came to do the will of the Father and to reveal the exact representation of that nature. As Hebrews points out that God in times past in many ways and portions spoke to us BUT in these last days speaks to us through His Son.
Any "perception" we have of God from the OT that conflicts with the revealed nature of God as show in Christ's life on this earth will be inaccurate.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[SUP]2[/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
So, if we want to see the Father's view of people both sinners and religious looking ones - look to how Jesus interacted with them while on this earth
If we want to see how God disciplines His children - look to see how Jesus disciplined His disciples.
If we want to see the Father's view of healing, grace and wholeness towards people - look to see what Jesus did when on this earth.
I know for a fact that none of us know the Lord with accurate knowledge but the Holy Spirit is revealing Christ to us and He is the exact representation of the Father's will for people and of His nature. With that knowledge we can trust the Holy Spirit to do His job as we are willing to repent and agree with what God says about things as revealed through His Son - our Lord.
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So tell me something PeterJens, when Jesus said to this woman, "go and sin no more," do you believe that He meant go and live a sinless life from now on or else?! Do you really believe that Jesus expected this woman from that moment on to never sin again at all? I believe that Jesus absolutely expected this woman to stop committing adultery. Of course Jesus would say nothing less than go and sin no more because if He did, that would compromise His perfect, holy standard. That is what we should strive for, but be honest, how many of us live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time, exactly as Jesus lived?
So I will ask you again: Do you claim to be sinless 100% of the time?
So I will ask you again: Do you claim to be sinless 100% of the time?
I think you do not understand communion, sin and righteousness.
Jesus said what He said, but you think this is an exam, not walking in love through
the cross. It makes me wonder if you really know anyone, and everyone is distant to
you.
Have you an open heart? Jesus speaks to the real us inside, or else it is just show.
Jesus said what He said, but you think this is an exam, not walking in love through
the cross. It makes me wonder if you really know anyone, and everyone is distant to
you.
Have you an open heart? Jesus speaks to the real us inside, or else it is just show.
If you knew what I was speaking of you would have no issues.
It is not me who judges you but your own words.
We should be brothers, because on paper we are, yet I sense in you a divide.
If you say I sin show me. And when was it a ministry to condemn goodness
and love and claim hidden sin in those washed by the lamb.
You are walking in unbelief and condemnation yet claim you are ok.
How are the chosen so cursed, on those sin so continuously they do not
know purity. Such spiritual wisdom, yet it creates condemners and not
blessers.
It is not me who judges you but your own words.
We should be brothers, because on paper we are, yet I sense in you a divide.
If you say I sin show me. And when was it a ministry to condemn goodness
and love and claim hidden sin in those washed by the lamb.
You are walking in unbelief and condemnation yet claim you are ok.
How are the chosen so cursed, on those sin so continuously they do not
know purity. Such spiritual wisdom, yet it creates condemners and not
blessers.
The sky is blue to you. But to someone else they see you saying it is green. It's a waste of time dealing with this type of a mindset.
Something is wrong in Denmark - as the saying goes.
You would be better off to try to deliver the mail to Santa Claus in the North Pole. You might find him there - but I doubt it.
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Thank you for giving me answers.
Fear is sin to you, which you believe drives me even if I say it does not.
I talk of an open heart, but you show a hard heart claiming in yourselves this
is an attack of the enemy.
If I link this to ideas of brainwashing, you fear for a changed heart, so close down.
Without letting Jesus in it is just words, ritual and ideas without love.
God bless you all, and may love and grace enclose you to remove the fear you have
of yourselves. Jesus came to save all of you, not just a part.
Fear is sin to you, which you believe drives me even if I say it does not.
I talk of an open heart, but you show a hard heart claiming in yourselves this
is an attack of the enemy.
If I link this to ideas of brainwashing, you fear for a changed heart, so close down.
Without letting Jesus in it is just words, ritual and ideas without love.
God bless you all, and may love and grace enclose you to remove the fear you have
of yourselves. Jesus came to save all of you, not just a part.
LOL! Some people can't even answer a simple question. 
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This is Pauls answer to the question of his walk
Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
1 Cor 4:2-5
Paul is answering the question not about righteousness and walking in love, but about
motivation questions.
What we can answer is if our conscience is clear? Amen. And if it is not, we can confess
and repent, and receive forgiveness. So we walk as we should.
But what the group here cannot accept is walking in communion with Christ is perfection,
is the walk of life and righteousness. It is our faith that is counted as righteousness, and
our walk that reflects this righteousness.
But then I suspect their hearts are full of condemnation and failure which is why these words
do not work, because they walk with a closed heart, and fear what their hearts hold.
So some questions do not have a simple answer if one wants to speak the truth.
Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
1 Cor 4:2-5
Paul is answering the question not about righteousness and walking in love, but about
motivation questions.
What we can answer is if our conscience is clear? Amen. And if it is not, we can confess
and repent, and receive forgiveness. So we walk as we should.
But what the group here cannot accept is walking in communion with Christ is perfection,
is the walk of life and righteousness. It is our faith that is counted as righteousness, and
our walk that reflects this righteousness.
But then I suspect their hearts are full of condemnation and failure which is why these words
do not work, because they walk with a closed heart, and fear what their hearts hold.
So some questions do not have a simple answer if one wants to speak the truth.