Women Pastors? Help me.
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Dino, if you really do not recognize that in 1Cor 14 34-35 God is telling the church through Paul that in a mixed assembly the men are to do the speaking(and therefore leading) then allow me to help you. 1Cor 14:1-34 is Paul describing the various speaking gifts to be exercised in the church. After describing all the speaking gifts and therefore leading gifts being practiced in the church...THEN Paul says, let the women keep silence in the CHURCH. Now that church was a mixture of men and women, so that would mean that Paul was speaking to a mixed assembly, and after telling the church about the speaking gifts he then tells the women to keep silent, so that would leave it for the men to do the speaking. I was assuming that your grasp of context was enough so that I could just shorten it down, I hope this helps you.
Hi Freed4ever... Perhaps you could use the "Reply with Quote" button so that everybody knows to whom you are responding. Also, your sentence structure here is awkward and makes it difficult to determine what you are asserting.
When you can post a Scripture verse which states, "only men may lead or speak in the mixed assembly" in exactly those words then I will consider that you've made your point. Until then, those words are your interpretation, not Scripture.
When you can post a Scripture verse which states, "only men may lead or speak in the mixed assembly" in exactly those words then I will consider that you've made your point. Until then, those words are your interpretation, not Scripture.
Well, it is not so easy as you are saying that Iounias is a woman. The scholars are not unique in the translations. The original word junian was without accent. With an accusativ it can be feminin "Junia" but can also be masculin "Junias"
The greec text is not clear about it: So in Codex Vaticanus (4. century) the name Junian is without accent, later it became tthrough a corrector an accent, which can mean both (female/masculin) Codex Sinaiticus (4. century) and Codex Alexandrinus uesing "Junian " without accent.
Some Scholars wrote that Andronikus and Junias were a married couple. Some wrote that Junias is a shortform Junianus an a man. An other argument that it was not an female apostle, is that you cant find in the whole NT a hint of an femal apostle.
You mentioned the "overall"! From the beginning God was uesing only man in leader function about Israel. So you find no felae priest and also no Queen in Isreael. Also Jesus electet only Man as Apostles. Why the church should change what the Lord did not.
Another thing is: you can read in the greec text from Romans 16,7 . not only that they were apostles, but that they had a good note under the apostles, what not means that they were apostles itself. There is no clearness in the text.
So If you claim that Junian is female, you have very weak arguments for an apostle. It could also be that Junia then was the wife from Andronicus. To build up an doctrine with such weak areguments is not serious. And is also speaking against a healthy hermeneutic.
The greec text is not clear about it: So in Codex Vaticanus (4. century) the name Junian is without accent, later it became tthrough a corrector an accent, which can mean both (female/masculin) Codex Sinaiticus (4. century) and Codex Alexandrinus uesing "Junian " without accent.
Some Scholars wrote that Andronikus and Junias were a married couple. Some wrote that Junias is a shortform Junianus an a man. An other argument that it was not an female apostle, is that you cant find in the whole NT a hint of an femal apostle.
You mentioned the "overall"! From the beginning God was uesing only man in leader function about Israel. So you find no felae priest and also no Queen in Isreael. Also Jesus electet only Man as Apostles. Why the church should change what the Lord did not.
Another thing is: you can read in the greec text from Romans 16,7 . not only that they were apostles, but that they had a good note under the apostles, what not means that they were apostles itself. There is no clearness in the text.
So If you claim that Junian is female, you have very weak arguments for an apostle. It could also be that Junia then was the wife from Andronicus. To build up an doctrine with such weak areguments is not serious. And is also speaking against a healthy hermeneutic.
Dino, Sorry but I think you are beyond help. You need to start trying to get a cohesive argument together for when you stand before Christ and try to explain your position, also,just in case you don't make that one you can always use it for the Great White Throne judgement. At any rate you will have to explain your rejection of the word of God in this area.
Brother Sam,
I agree, Men should lead, out of man came woman. At the same time, as I stated before and as others below have written. God will use whom he will and must to get his word out. If a woman is worthy and. It a man, so he it. If a child is worthy and not an adult, then praise be to God, for he has hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to babes. Remember when Christ was coming into Jerusalem, and people were shouting praises with his deciples. The Jewish leaders told them to tell them to be silent. What was Christ reply? If they were silent the rocks would cry out. One way or another the truth will be heard. Even from a woman Or a baby girl if need be.
I agree, Men should lead, out of man came woman. At the same time, as I stated before and as others below have written. God will use whom he will and must to get his word out. If a woman is worthy and. It a man, so he it. If a child is worthy and not an adult, then praise be to God, for he has hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to babes. Remember when Christ was coming into Jerusalem, and people were shouting praises with his deciples. The Jewish leaders told them to tell them to be silent. What was Christ reply? If they were silent the rocks would cry out. One way or another the truth will be heard. Even from a woman Or a baby girl if need be.
S
Paul is not telling the woman to be silent, he is quoting people that said the women should be silent according to the law and Paul was not pushing the law he was rebuking those people for saying that it was the law and the fact that you've been told this dozens of times and refuse to accept it shows you are bound by a lie of the enemy.
S
The link I gave you is a consensus opinion so if you can provide something else that supports your opinion then please do so otherwise I will have to say you are talking off the top of your head only.
Jesus had many women disciples that followed him around but as he was single the apostles had to be men for obvious reasons as in the Jewish culture woman would not be allowed for propriety reasons to be with Jesus and other men in such close quarters.
The following link is an exposition from the preeminent Greek exegete of our day.
https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
I suggest you guide yourself accordingly.
Jesus had many women disciples that followed him around but as he was single the apostles had to be men for obvious reasons as in the Jewish culture woman would not be allowed for propriety reasons to be with Jesus and other men in such close quarters.
The following link is an exposition from the preeminent Greek exegete of our day.
https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167
I suggest you guide yourself accordingly.
Hi Dino: I never tire of showing you how wrong you are. If all the men went to war and didn't come back, could the Pastor, Deacons, Overseers, all be women? Of course they could be, they could also prophecy at the meetings and speak in tongues. The women could do all those things because they are given by God the indwelling Spirit and therefore could exercise all the gifts of the Spirit. The Apostle Paul described all the speaking gifts given to the church and then ended it by saying let the women keep silent. Those persons with only minimal intelligence can recognize that in that church of men and women he wanted the men to do the speaking.
S
That's NOT true. Paul's closing statement is;
[FONT="]Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.[/FONT]
Why do you resort to subterfuge and obfuscation now? Only false teachers practice that.
[FONT="]Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.[/FONT]
Why do you resort to subterfuge and obfuscation now? Only false teachers practice that.
If you do a study on that verse you will see that he was talking like that because of the situation that was in the churches. There were heathen women preaching false doctrine and bickering with their husbands on full display even arguing and interrupting the pastor.
There are also pastors and preachers in the bible to were great leaders..Aqua and Priscilla even saved Pauls life which he addressed in a whole chapter in romans somewhere. I dont remember which
It is a fact that woman can pray, preach,etc. when they are appointed by God. God calls everyone. There is no male nor female before God.
Get ready for people to go nuts.. this is a veeery controversial topic
There are also pastors and preachers in the bible to were great leaders..Aqua and Priscilla even saved Pauls life which he addressed in a whole chapter in romans somewhere. I dont remember which
It is a fact that woman can pray, preach,etc. when they are appointed by God. God calls everyone. There is no male nor female before God.
Get ready for people to go nuts.. this is a veeery controversial topic
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (HCSB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[SUP]34 [/SUP] the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.
Its not a matter of ability in respect to male or female but assigned positions because of the fall.. The new order on this side of the cross used when men gather together is realized by the headship of Christ, in God.
The main point was to aid in distinguishing the different roles of the sexes. It was for this reason that the OT also forbade a man to dress like a woman.
God’s invisible glory is manifested by Christ who did put on flesh for a short while, as the Son of man. Therefore, because we cannot know him anymore, forever more after the flesh. He assigned man to represent him as if he was our husband Christ, not seen, he is our spiritual head, manifested by that seen (man) to represent the hidden glory of God.
Therefore man must not cover his head of hair ; if he did not he would dishonor Christ and therefore dishonor God , his head.
Women represent the bride of Christ the church in that way, they are used as outwardly as a manifestation to represent both man and woman.(one creation the bride)
Seeing they are one creation. She is not left without a glory (her hair) to represent the hidden glory of God .She must cover her head of hair or shave it off which represents shame in the scriptures.
The woman who represents the bride of Christ is not spoken of as the image of man but of His glory. There it is not representation but manifestation. The glory of man must not be made manifest in spiritual exercises. No glory but that of God’s not seen in the spiritual realm, as a sign for the angels
Then when man sees the woman’s head covered, he is reminded his glory is also covered. Then the public ministry can be performed so God alone receives the glory.
Again because woman outwardly represents the whole body of Christ, She who represents the whole church, as the bride should be silent. His bride made up of male and female would apply the same principle (head covering of woman) with teaching men in as assembly.
She should be silent just as Eve should of. It was disgraceful that she took the lead as the head rather than walking by faith in respect to Him, not seen, the true head , Christ.She can teach at home or a Sunday school class .And men should not be silent with issues that affect both, as was Adam who was with Eve when she ate and also ate..He reused to speak .
The main point was to aid in distinguishing the different roles of the sexes. It was for this reason that the OT also forbade a man to dress like a woman.
God’s invisible glory is manifested by Christ who did put on flesh for a short while, as the Son of man. Therefore, because we cannot know him anymore, forever more after the flesh. He assigned man to represent him as if he was our husband Christ, not seen, he is our spiritual head, manifested by that seen (man) to represent the hidden glory of God.
Therefore man must not cover his head of hair ; if he did not he would dishonor Christ and therefore dishonor God , his head.
Women represent the bride of Christ the church in that way, they are used as outwardly as a manifestation to represent both man and woman.(one creation the bride)
Seeing they are one creation. She is not left without a glory (her hair) to represent the hidden glory of God .She must cover her head of hair or shave it off which represents shame in the scriptures.
The woman who represents the bride of Christ is not spoken of as the image of man but of His glory. There it is not representation but manifestation. The glory of man must not be made manifest in spiritual exercises. No glory but that of God’s not seen in the spiritual realm, as a sign for the angels
Then when man sees the woman’s head covered, he is reminded his glory is also covered. Then the public ministry can be performed so God alone receives the glory.
Again because woman outwardly represents the whole body of Christ, She who represents the whole church, as the bride should be silent. His bride made up of male and female would apply the same principle (head covering of woman) with teaching men in as assembly.
She should be silent just as Eve should of. It was disgraceful that she took the lead as the head rather than walking by faith in respect to Him, not seen, the true head , Christ.She can teach at home or a Sunday school class .And men should not be silent with issues that affect both, as was Adam who was with Eve when she ate and also ate..He reused to speak .