Women Pastors? Help me.

[StanJ]

And a further Scripture for that you can also find in 1. Cor. 14, 33-36. How this fit together if a woman is Pastor and leading a church?

I have already explained this a few times and in case you missed it read v39 where it says 'brothers and sisters'.

 

[VCO]

It's not about ruling, that is your word, it's about headship and submission. Just as in any organization there can only be one leader, in the family there can only be one leader, but that does not mean that women cannot be pastors and teach other men.
Where does the bible say women cannot be Pastors in plain words? So far you haven't given us anything that says 'women cannot be pastors'.

Since you will not believe GOD inspired Paul to write what he wrote that all overseers were to be the Husband of one wife.

There is no point to even continue this discussion is there?

 

[VCO]

I have already explained this a few times and in case you missed it read 1 Cor. 14:39 where it says 'brothers and sisters'.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (ASV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (NKJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (NRSV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:39 (RSV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:39 (ESV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:39 (NIV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (BBE)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So then, my brothers, let it be your chief desire to be prophets; but let no one be stopped from using tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:39 (YLT)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] so that, brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to speak with tongues do not forbid;

1 Corinthians 14:39 (MontgomeryNT)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So, my brothers, be ambitious for the gift of prophecy, and speak not against the gifts of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:39-40 (NJB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not suppress the gift of speaking in tongues.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] But make sure that everything is done in a proper and orderly fashion.

1 Corinthians 14:39 (HCSB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages.


And therefore you chose the WEAKEST modern street language English Translation to support your Charismatic thing, so that you can continue to justify in your mind TOTALLY IGNORING what GOD said:


1 Corinthians 14:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.

Matthew 6:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.

Matthew 6:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Therefore, you should pray like this: {in your own language prayers modeled after this} Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.

 

[StanJ]

Since you will not believe GOD inspired Paul to write what he wrote that all overseers were to be the Husband of one wife.
There is no point to even continue this discussion is there?

I'm pretty sure I said that to you a few pages back and yet you keep interjecting when I'm not even addressing you.
First of all I never said that I don't believe God inspired Paul.
Secondly an overseer is NOT a pastor. An overseer is more like our modern day superintendent's or bishops. You really need to pay attention to what is being discussed here and stop deflecting.

 

[StanJ]

And therefore you chose the WEAKEST modern street language English Translation to support your Charismatic thing, so that you can continue to justify in your mind TOTALLY IGNORING what GOD said:

The following versions all use brothers and sisters;
CEB, ERV, ESV, GW, NOG, NCV, NET, NIV, HATE, TLV, VOICE,
The AMP uses believers. The GNT & NRSV use friends.
Brethren is from the Greek ἀδελφός (adelphos), which in the New Testament refers to a member of the Christian Community regardless of gender.

As far as 1 Corinthians 14:34 is concerned, it's useless to argue with you about what it says because you won't believe anything based on your expressed ignorance so far. The ones that get it wrong are the ones that use 'brother' as the translation when indeed Paul was addressing the whole church, not just the men. Verses 6 & 20 also use 'brothers and sisters' but in more translations then even verse 39, but the Greek word is still the same so who is making the mistake, God or the translators?
I suggest you actually study the Greek if you know how, and then come back with an informed opinion rather than just deflect by using different English translations.

 

[wolfwint]

It's not my interpretation it's the context in which Paul is writing his letter to Timothy. In the Greek, γυνή (gynē) means a married woman, otherwise Paul would have used ὦ γύναι to signify all women as a gender, or, θῆλυς (thēlys) to represent female as Mark 10:6 does.
V15 goes to your mindset and is an integral part of this section of scripture and goes towards how you think the words are so plain and clear. You seem to be afraid to deal with this verse because it is so glaring given your declaration that the scripture is so clear. Are women saved because they bare children? Or is there more behind v15 than you care to admit?

Well Paul is uesing in 1. Tim. 2,12 the same word which is uesed in Matthew 5,28. Does this means man should not looks with lust only to a married woman? But to unmarried woman it is alloud? This would be the conclusion according your argumentation that in 1. Tim. 2,12 only married woman are meant. The word (gynaixi) is used in both cases all woman.
Also the woman in Matth. 9,20 is translatet with (gyne) It seems not that she was marrried. But according your statement she was married. So it seems that gyne is used for all woman married ore not!
About Vers 15 of course, some of scholars call this one of the difficults verses in bible. So I can not solve what others with more wisedom and IQ cant. But we can obey what is clear and understandable.

 

[wolfwint]

It's not about ruling, that is your word, it's about headship and submission. Just as in any organization there can only be one leader, in the family there can only be one leader, but that does not mean that women cannot be pastors and teach other men.
Where does the bible say women cannot be Pastors in plain words? So far you haven't given us anything that says 'women cannot be pastors'.

Stan, 1. Tim. 2,12 is useing the words: teach and authority (authenteo) which is only one time used in NT. So you are rigth ruling is not the right translation for this word. But you are also wrong with submission and headship. If you are saying now that woman can be Pastors ( and have authority over man), than this is against the clear scripture message. You have to ignore the scripture and to give new meanings in it. 1. Tim 2.12-14 is in plain words written. How you can suggest that woman are allowed to teach man and have authority about them? In marrige and in church?

 

[wolfwint]

I have already explained this a few times and in case you missed it read v39 where it says 'brothers and sisters'.

Sorry, i cant find sisters in Vers 39. Not in english not in german and Even not in the greec text. Which text you use?

 

[VCO]

Do you really think Paul was teaching the Judaic law over Christianity? You apparently don't understand the context of verse 34?
Paul was quoting what the Judaizers we're trying to teach to the Corinthians here and he rebukes them in verses 36-40.

NO, I think GOD is applying that standard of decently and in order to BOTH COVENANTS.

Do you really think Jesus is teaching that Judaic Law over Christianity when HE SAID:


Matthew 5:18-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


In other words, you ARE APPLYING YOUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, OVER WHAT GOD'S WILL IS; instead of searching the Scriptures to see if your Experience matches what GOD's Will is.

 

[StanJ]

Well Paul is uesing in 1. Tim. 2,12 the same word which is uesed in Matthew 5,28. Does this means man should not looks with lust only to a married woman? But to unmarried woman it is alloud? This would be the conclusion according your argumentation that in 1. Tim. 2,12 only married woman are meant. The word (gynaixi) is used in both cases all woman.
Also the woman in Matth. 9,20 is translatet with (gyne) It seems not that she was marrried. But according your statement she was married. So it seems that gyne is used for all woman married ore not!
About Vers 15 of course, some of scholars call this one of the difficults verses in bible. So I can not solve what others with more wisedom and IQ cant. But we can obey what is clear and understandable.

In the context of Matthew 5:28 that's right wolf, you can only commit adultery with a married woman.
If you're not going to accept the definitions I have already given to you about the proper connotations of the Greek then that's your problem. As far as Matthew 9:20 is concerned, yes that is a married woman as well. Your problem appears to be that you look your bias instead of looking to see what the word really says. What you should do is trust the wisdom and IQ of the scholars but instead you look to your own wisdom which is sorely lacking in this case and when you don't really have an answer to something you ignore my pointed questions or deflect.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, 1. Tim. 2,12 is useing the words: teach and authority (authenteo) which is only one time used in NT. So you are rigth ruling is not the right translation for this word. But you are also wrong with submission and headship. If you are saying now that woman can be Pastors ( and have authority over man), than this is against the clear scripture message. You have to ignore the scripture and to give new meanings in it. 1. Tim 2.12-14 is in plain words written. How you can suggest that woman are allowed to teach man and have authority about them? In marrige and in church?

Eph 5:22-24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5:22-24&version=MOUNCE

 

[StanJ]

Sorry, i cant find sisters in Vers 39. Not in english not in german and Even not in the greec text. Which text you use?

Read Post 1065

 

[StanJ]

NO, I think GOD is applying that standard of decently and in order to BOTH COVENANTS.
Do you really think Jesus is teaching that Judaic Law over Christianity when HE SAID:
Matthew 5:18-19 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In other words, you ARE APPLYING YOUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, OVER WHAT GOD'S WILL IS; instead of searching the Scriptures to see if your Experience matches what GOD's Will is.

It's not about what Jesus is teaching because he never taught anything about a woman being able to speak in church or be a pastor. You know very well the issue is about what Paul is teaching and how you accept it and as such Paul never taught to follow the judaic law.

 

[wolfwint]

Eph 5:22-24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5:22-24&version=MOUNCE

I am not talking from Eph. 5:22-24! I am talking from 1. Tim 2,12-14!

 

[wolfwint]

Read Post 1065

Which Greece Scripture is useing brothers and sisters? Post 1065 gives no answer!

 

[wolfwint]

In the context of Matthew 5:28 that's right wolf, you can only commit adultery with a married woman.
If you're not going to accept the definitions I have already given to you about the proper connotations of the Greek then that's your problem. As far as Matthew 9:20 is concerned, yes that is a married woman as well. Your problem appears to be that you look your bias instead of looking to see what the word really says. What you should do is trust the wisdom and IQ of the scholars but instead you look to your own wisdom which is sorely lacking in this case and when you don't really have an answer to something you ignore my pointed questions or deflect.[/QUOTE
Thank you for the compliment! I should trust scholars? If they fearing God and obeying his word, no problem. But there a lot of them which changing the word according their own wisedom and there own doctrine.
In Math. 5:28 the matter is to have lust with an woman. You can see it in both ways. But ok i can see it also from your point.
But please tell me, how do you know that the woman in 9,20 is married? I better trust the word in the hope that the translaters not all are wrong.

 

[wolfwint]

It's not about what Jesus is teaching because he never taught anything about a woman being able to speak in church or be a pastor. You know very well the issue is about what Paul is teaching and how you accept it and as such Paul never taught to follow the judaic law.

So far I know you expierieced the second baptising with the Holy Spirit. So you must know is that what Paul wrote Gods word ore is it not?

 

[wolfwint]

It's not about what Jesus is teaching because he never taught anything about a woman being able to speak in church or be a pastor. You know very well the issue is about what Paul is teaching and how you accept it and as such Paul never taught to follow the judaic law.

So far I know you expierieced the second baptising with the Holy Spirit. So you must know is that what Paul wrote Gods word ore is it not?

 

[StanJ]

I am not talking from Eph. 5:22-24! I am talking from 1. Tim 2,12-14!

You mean except when you want to use other scripture? Again your understanding of English seems to get in the way.

 

[StanJ]

So far I know you expierieced the second baptising with the Holy Spirit. So you must know is that what Paul wrote Gods word ore is it not?

So do you think that inspiration comes from a vacuum or do you not believe that God took into consideration what was going on at that time? If Paul is addressing thoughts that came from people prior to this book and we don't have those thoughts in writing, does that mean that Paul didn't address the issues?