Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

Locutus · Feb 22, 2017

I know the Muslims claim to be the children of Ishmael, but that's not what Paul is inferring.

He's using Midrash to explain how unbelieving israel/Judah are in bondage to the Sinaitic covenant:

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

The Sinaitic Covenant was still in place in the early days of the new.

Agar was a slave - unbelieving Israel/Judah was considered to be in slavery under the Sinaitic covenant by Paul.

G1397 douleia doo-li'-ah

from G1398;

slavery (ceremonially or figuratively).

KJV: bondage.

Gal 5:1 (NIV) It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

GaryA · Feb 23, 2017

GaryA said:

Locutus said:

GaryA said:

Where we are now on the [ smaller ] 'Chronological Order' chart / table - below the [ larger ] main chart / table - on my Olivet Discourse page - is 5.

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

GaryA said:

Gary,

Have you read "War of the Jews" by Josephus? Here's a link:

War of the Jews - Flavius Josephus

If you read Books 3-6 it will leave no doubt in your mind that all the events of Mat 24:1-26 have been fulfilled. Absolutely every sign Jesus gives leading up to the "Great Tribulation" occurred. The Abomination of Desolation was the Roman armies. Compare scripture with scripture. Compare Luke 21 with Mat 24.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet...

Who caused the desolation of Jerusalem? The Roman armies. Titus ordered every stone to be removed from the entire city leaving it an empty desert with no houses, buildings or inhabitants. No city or country had ever been, nor ever will again, be left in such in such a desolate state as what happened in 66-70 AD. The misery and suffering of the Jews trapped inside the city was the worst suffering that any people ever endured. This was the Great Tribulation.

An "Abomination" is a detestable thing. Roman armies with their pagan idols in Jerusalem was detestable.

I arrived at this view fairly recently after I read the applicable portions of "War."

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

GaryA said:

So, this puts us between 17 and 18 on your chart. Locutus would argue that all of the Olivet was in the past and would likely cite verse 34 as in everything was seen by that wicked, perverse generation of 30-70 AD. There is little doubt in my mind that the Day of Christ did occur back then and He used Rome to execute judgment on those wicked Jews, the Temple and city. But when I read the part about Noah and people working quietly in the field and getting married, that does not match AD 70 as the starvation was so bad, really on both sides, that there was nothing out in the fields as all food was taken. There was nobody getting married and living a carefree life back in AD 70 either.

So, I put the break after verse 26. So, I am 1 million percent positive that verse 26 and backwards are all in the past. I can cite examples from Josephus on EVERYTHING having occurred back then.

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

This is a good time to point out to everyone again that the Great Tribulation is over. It applied to the wicked Jews in the City in AD 66-70. Only "those in Judea" were to flee when they saw the Roman army first arrive under Vespasian. There was a short break after the Romans pulled back and Titus took over. That was the time to flee and every Christian indeed left the city and not one was lost. All those left behind went through the Great Tribulation.

The events leading up to and including the Great Tribulation stand in stark contrast to the scene Jesus paints as to the state of the world prior to His arrival below.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[SUP][/SUP] but My Father only. [SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

The above makes clear, when Christ returns, there is no great tribulation happening. Everything seems normal.

abcdef · Feb 23, 2017

.

Brother PlainWord,

Nice.

PlainWord said:

This was the beginning of the great tribulation, 70 ad.

The tribulation ended when Israel was restored to Jerusalem, 1967.

The 2nd half of the statue of Dan. 2.

The 2nd, 3 1/2ts.

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The first 3 1/2ts is from the declaration of the angel in the captivity of Babylon Dan 12:5-7,

Who says that it will be 3 1/2ts until the power of the holy people is scattered, 70 ad.

--

Then the 2nd half of the 3 1/2ts would be 70 ad until 1967,

Better known as the times of the gentiles.
-
This would complete the statue of Dan 2,

And the 7 times (not 7 years),

The time from the captivity in Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

So if the passages in the discourse are mainly about the dest of Jeru in 70ad,

We won't expect that they would be repeated at a later date, as they have already been fulfilled.

(When I say mainly, I believe that John saw the beginning of the times of the gentiles, but not the end, "this generation".)

========================

So now, here we are, past the end of the times of the gentiles, 1967.

What is the next event that takes place in the statue of Dan 2 ?

The stone strikes and eternity begins.

That is the last event that takes place on this Planet, (wheat/chaff judgement, new earth).

The fire from heaven, Rev 20, (judgement, new earth).

The 2nd resurrection.

Behold the Bridegroom Cometh !!

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

Locutus said:

Yes, but didn't you see the other message in Gal 4 related to Hagar?

For the desolate has many more children.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit

Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The Children of Hagar and Ishmael will never be heirs to the promise.

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

A 1900 year Great Tribulation? Not sure I'd agree with that. They were scattered into the nations and the time of the Gentiles began.

Depends how you view the feet and toes.

Correct. Agreed!!

YES!!

YES. He puts an end to all rule and authority.

Let's make sure we are talking the same thing. This "wheat/chaff" from Mat 3 is over.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

It dealt with the religious leaders and zealots of the 66-70 AD period.

Hopefully you are not conflating the above passage with Mat 13 because wheat is found in both passages. But in Mat 13 there is no chaff. Instead you find tares that are gathered and burned.

Agreed. I see the Gog invasion as the next big thing on the prophetic calendar.

abcdef · Feb 23, 2017

PlainWord said:

Think about it.

Israel is given into the power of the beast nation, 4th, iron legs, for 3 1/2ts, Dan 7:25, Rev 13:5.

70 ad until 1967, when the power of Rome over Israel and Jerusalem ended.

You have already said that you believe that the clay is Islam.

So that would put us at the end of the toes, now that Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

(I agree to a point, the clay cannot represent Islam exclusively, there were many other non-Roman nations that Israel lived under until they were restored to Jerusalem. Such as all the Protestant and other religions and regions.)

You will have to make a choice here, Dan 2, the stone strikes.

Is this Jesus coming the 1st time, for the 1st resurrection and to establish the Pentecost Kingdom on earth,

Or is this a picture of His 2nd coming and the end of this planet, and the beginning of eternity?

--

The rebellion of Magog at the end of time Rev 20, shows that the Pentecost Kingdom does not "fill the earth", as in eliminate all false religion from planet earth,

That is, everyone on planet earth obeys the gospel, it doesn't happen.

However, this does happen when we get to the new earth, heaven.

--

When the stone strikes, there is a judgement and a new earth.

The stone, Jesus, becomes the new earth, (a living earth),

There is no more rebellions or domination of Israel and Jerusalem, by the gentile nations ever again.

This shows that Magog must rebel before the stone strikes.

And the iron legs were not ended until 1967.

I'm talking exclusively about the harvest in Dan 2.

While it is true that the stone striking the statue is used by Jesus to illustrate the judgement on the religious order of His time,

The stone striking the statue cannot have happened yet, due to the present reality of Magog beginning to surround Israel and Jerusalem.

And the Iron legs continuing past the dest of Jeru.

But if this is true,

What happens after Magog surrounds Jerusalem? Rev 20?

Remember that the dragon v 2, is the spirit of a nation Rev 12:3, who is trying to destroy Israel and the Pentecost Kingdom, it is Rome.(All he can do now is deceive the nations into surrounding Jerusalem)

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

PlainWord said:

Yes - but I'm reading it differently PL:

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born [b[after the flesh persecuted[/b] him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul is using Agar and her children symbolically in the midrash, what he's saying is the non-believing persecuting Jews were far more numerous than the persecuted believers and that's why he says - even so it is now..

There were no Muslim around to be persecuting when Paul wrote - and this ties in with the "remnant" only being saved:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The casting out is what Jesus said would happen in relation to the kingdom:

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

"thrust and cast" are the same Greek word.

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

Some more points in regard to great city and the whore pointing to Jerusalem and the apostate Jews of the first century.

I previously linked the harvest with the time of the wedding, wheat/tares, wedding "city" burned to the 1st century.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
.
.
.
(Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

If as I posited that the harvest and wedding motifs were in the 1st century, then we find the corresponding events in the book of revelation.

iamsoandso · Feb 23, 2017

fanner, Strong's Hebrew: 2114. זוּר (zuwr) -- another strangers, Jeremiah 51 Interlinear Bible

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

Jeremiah 51 is dealing with God's judgment on the Chaldean's. Long past.

PlainWord · Feb 23, 2017

Huh? Western Rome ceased being Rome in 476 AD and Eastern Rome fell in 1299 AD. So they did not have power over Israel until 1967. In fact, Israel as a people were removed from the Holy Land in 70 AD, 73 AD if you count Masada. Some returned later. Only the captured Jews were removed to Rome. The Christian Jews fled to Pella and other places and were never again under the rule of Rome. The captured Jews could not be considered "saints" since they did not leave the city per Jesus' warning. Plus, many of them were evil and were being punished, those not killed.

It isn't the beast that persecutes the saints for a time, times and 1/2 a time, it's the horn that rose up among the 10 horns.

And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. [SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Got to run, more later.

Ahwatukee · Feb 23, 2017

Locutus, which part of the woman who rides the beast gets destroyed so that she is never inhabited again, are you not understanding?

The Mystery, Babylon the great, the woman who rides the beast, that great city, is destroyed during the great tribulation period:

"With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again. The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again."

======================================

Jerusalem is not that great city, for she is inhabited during the millennial period:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

Since you have the woman who rides the beast, that great city, being destroyed during the great tribulation period so that no one will ever inhabit her again. And Jerusalem is shown to be inhabited during the millennial period. How can you continue to say that Jerusalem is that great city of Revelation 17 & 18. Logic tells us that if the great city is destroyed during the great tribulation and Jerusalem is seen to have inhabitants during the millennial period, then Jerusalem cannot possibly be that great city, the woman who rides the beast.

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child...

What got destroyed was the 1st century covenant nation of apostate Israel, never to rise again as anything important or to have "the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee".

John is using language in the same way as all the prophets did:

(Jer 25:12 KJV) And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Is the land of the Chaldeans a "perpetual desolation"?

dispensationalists...*pfft*

iamsoandso · Feb 23, 2017

Locutus said:

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child...

What got destroyed was the 1st century covenant nation of apostate Israel, never to rise again as anything important or to have "the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee".

John is using language in the same way as all the prophets did:

(Jer 25:12 KJV) And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Is the land of the Chaldeans a "perpetual desolation"?

dispensationalists...*pfft*

lol,I like that as if the "apostate Israel" has any supporting followers even as we speak.

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

iamsoandso said:

Yer gotta remember the dispensational friends of Zion want the Jews back in the land so 2/3 of them can die in the great tribulation.

For them Armageddon is good news.

With friends like that who needs enemas?

abcdef · Feb 23, 2017

PlainWord said:

True

We agree that the 4th beast nation and the iron legs nation can only be Rome.

You believe that we are in the time of the toes (clay),

Who then rules over Israel between the fall of Rome, 476 ad and 1967 ?

Who is the iron legs and the 4th beast during that time period?

It can ONLY be the RCC, the "image" of the Caesar and the Roman Empire.

Much later, 1900 years later.

Lk 21:24, "....shall be led away captive unto all nations:.."

The natural branches, Yes ?

The natural branches (flesh Israel), whether they were members of the Pentecost Kingdom or not, were persecuted by Rome/Caesar/BoR, for the next 1900 yrs.

(Dan 7:25), The saints are God's people Israel, natural and wild branches.

Ok, again from the top.

The 4th beast is Rome Dan 7, the iron legs are Rome Dan 2, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, countries, kingdoms.

The beast has 8 heads and ten horns, Rev 17.

Understand, that the iron legs, feet, and toes are one SOLID NATION, the clay being non-Roman NATIONS.

Understand now that the 8 heads and the 10 horns are the same, one solid nation.

This one nation, Rome rules over Israel and the Pentecost Kingdom (saints, Dan 7:25), for the time period of 3 1/2ts.

This is shown in Rev 13:5 as the sea beast's rule over the "saints" v 7. ( sea beast-civil Rome, earth beast religious Rome)

But see how they are all one entity nation, the sea beast, the earth beast the heads and kings.

The 8th head, is one of the 7, Rev 17:11, he has been there as the earth beast, Caesar worship, all along.

When the sea beast dies, the earth beast, religious Rome, makes an image,

An image NATION, NATION, KINGDOM, 10 KINGDOMS THAT ARE ONE !

What image nation of Rome ruled over Israel until 1967?? (RCC)

---

How long has Rome Ruled over Israel?

So far it's about 1900 yrs since 70 ad,

1967 - 70 = 1897 yrs = 3 1/2 ts, the second half of the statue in Dan 2.

The 1st 3 1/2 ts is proclaimed by the angel, during the captivity in Babylon, to be from the time of the declaration spoken until the time that the power of the holy people is scattered (70 ad) to be 3 1/2ts.

Together they make the 7 times, or the time of the statue, which is the time from Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

---

Locutus · Feb 23, 2017

"How long has Rome Ruled over Israel?"

I think you are forgetting the Muslims held it far longer than Rome ever did.

There goes that "Rome" theory...

But, let's not let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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