REVELATION

[Adstar]

I know it is a large, debated topic. But I wanted to start a thread for people to freely share their thoughts, convictions and questions etc on the last book given to us by the last surviving apostle at the time...John.

Exiled and a prisoner on the island of Patmos, he received this message.

Let's hear it, y'all.

The Book of Revelation reveals Jesus is God in the first chapter.. Thats the most important revelation.. It then shows us how the end times works itself out..

I believe it is very important for people to read the book. Because doing so will cause people to understand that some basic beliefs that are preached in churches are not right. It even states that anyone who reads it recieves a blessing..

 

[JesusRules1]

Just to keep it in the Book of Revelation theme----I do believe in the Rapture, but unless we (the Church) can pull America back--(God's extreme Mercy) I feel God is going to intervene and when He does it will not be pretty---God will "allow" stuff to happen just like He does with backsliders----this Country will Shake like you cannot believe---I believe we are on a short time table and my prayer for the last month has been what Mercy God show us in the next few years will be "deep enough"---if not---judgment...

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

We can't pull America back,for all nations will come together,for God is allowing the wicked to come together and rebel against Him,so He can put them down and end this sin business,and we do not fight against flesh and blood,but of spiritual wickedness in high places,so this means the devils will have more influence among the wicked,those people in high positions,and they will come together and rebel against God,including America,for God will gather all nations together.

 

[samuel23]

The word "church" is not mentioned past Rev 4, however the church is clearly described in Rev 7...let me say this more clear, it is impossible that Rec 7 is not describing the church.

 

[samuel23]

Revelation would have made more sense if everything had happened in the first century. On the other hand, God is God and there is no doubt in my mind that He intended things to continue up to the present moment and somewhere beyond. To the first century Christian, Babylon would have been the city of Rome, and the beast a Roman Ruler, and the beast empire the empire of Rome. Although Rome does still exist today, the city of Rome that actually ruled the world does not exist, there is no Roman Ruler who rules the world, and the empire of Rome is no more. I realize that some try to keep Rome alive through the RCC, however the RCC has less power and influence in the world today then does Saturday Night Live. The influence of the RCC has been going down for many years and I see no reason why that would change. At one time in history the RCC was so powerful and wicked that many bible teachers were sure that it had to be the beast of Revelation, however all that has changed, unless something radical happens we better look in another direction.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Morning samuel23,

Please show us the mentioning of the church in Rev.7. I guarantee you, it is only implied by you.

Revelation 7:1-8 = The Male child/144,000

Revelation 7:9-17 = The Great tribulation saints (GTS)

Neither of which are the church. The great tribulation saints are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and who commit themselves to Christ during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. The very fact that the elder is asking John who these are in white robes and where they come from, demonstrates that they are not the church. In addition, John says he doesn't know who they are. The GTS are the same group that is described below:

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for forty-two months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This group white robes which no man can count, are not the church, but those who become saints during that last seven years and whom the beast is given authority to make war against and conquer.

 

[Locutus]

America is not part of the Zechariah prophecy which was fulfilled in the 1st century along with the flowing of the river of life:

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The Living waters of Zechariah is the holy spirit:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

If the living waters prophecy of Zechariah is not fulfilled then no Christian has ever received the holy spirit - we know that that is not so.

We find the companion verse to Zechariah in revelation:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Although Rome does still exist today, the city of Rome that actually ruled the world does not exist, there is no Roman Ruler who rules the world, and the empire of Rome is no more.

Hello again samuel23,

It's not the ruler of Rome, but the ruler of Rome's pagan religious system, the pope and the Roman Catholic institution. This is what all clues of Rome in scripture are pointing the read to. When that antichrist is revealed, he will put the office of the pope back into power, so that all people must come under the authority of the pope. According to Catholic dogma, only the RCC is the true church and everyone must submit themselves under the authority of the pope. Anyone who doesn't is a heretic as far as they are concerned.

 

[samuel23]

Ok, I beheld a great multitude which NO MAN COULD NUMBER of all nations, kindreds, and people, and tongues...these are they which have washed their robes and made them white in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, that is a PERFECT description of the church. You claim these are those saved during the tribulation after the church is gone...that is utterly ridiculous! The tribulation is a time when it is illegal to even be a Christian, Christians will be hiding out, there will be no come to Christ meetings, yet during this time you are claiming that millions upon millions of people will become Christians??? Jesus said that during that time the whole world will hate you because you are a Christian. So the whole world hates Christians and millions of those Christian hating people will become Christians?? You are being illogical in order to protect your pre-trib agenda, better to just read the bible and believe it.

 

[Bladerunner]

The word "church" is not mentioned past Rev 4, however the church is clearly described in Rev 7...let me say this more clear, it is impossible that Rec 7 is not describing the church.

Ok I will bite,,,why do you say REV 7 is describing the church when the church has already been raptured

 

[Bladerunner]

Revelation would have made more sense if everything had happened in the first century. On the other hand, God is God and there is no doubt in my mind that He intended things to continue up to the present moment and somewhere beyond. To the first century Christian, Babylon would have been the city of Rome, and the beast a Roman Ruler, and the beast empire the empire of Rome. Although Rome does still exist today, the city of Rome that actually ruled the world does not exist, there is no Roman Ruler who rules the world, and the empire of Rome is no more. I realize that some try to keep Rome alive through the RCC, however the RCC has less power and influence in the world today then does Saturday Night Live. The influence of the RCC has been going down for many years and I see no reason why that would change. At one time in history the RCC was so powerful and wicked that many bible teachers were sure that it had to be the beast of Revelation, however all that has changed, unless something radical happens we better look in another direction.

samuel, samuel, samuel....... Daniel 7 tells us who the beast is among other queries.

 

[samuel23]

How can I explain to you that the sky is blue when we are both standing outside at noon on a totally cloudless day? If you cannot already see it then why should I bother. Once more, the bible does not say the church was gathered in Rev 4, and the bible does describe the church around the Throne of God in Rev 7. If you really cannot see that then you have a problem, I don't have a problem, and the bible does not have a problem...you have the problem.

 

[Ahwatukee]

How can I explain to you that the sky is blue when we are both standing outside at noon on a totally cloudless day? If you cannot already see it then why should I bother. Once more, the bible does not say the church was gathered in Rev 4, and the bible does describe the church around the Throne of God in Rev 7. If you really cannot see that then you have a problem, I don't have a problem, and the bible does not have a problem...you have the problem.

John was told to write letters to the seven churches. In Rev.7 he is then sees a vision of white robed saints which no man can count. The elder asks John who these are, which would demonstrate that this group is not the church. Rev.7 is introducing to new groups, the 144,000 out of Israel and the great tribulation saints, who are from every tribe, nation, language and people, which makes them Gentiles.

You are simply not understanding nor recognizing who is these in white robes are. There is a reason why we don't see the word Ekklesia/church after the end of chapter 3. The church is never mentioned during the time of "what must take place later" and that because Rev.4:1 is prophetic of the church being gathered, with John representing the church. The voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.

You are rejecting these truths because you haven't done a complete exegesis on this subject. It always seems to be that those who haven't done a complete study of end-time events, are always ridiculing and rejecting those who have. Instead of benefiting from the knowledge, you reject it.

=====================================


Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

======================================

Why would the elder be asking John who these are in white robes if they were the church that John was previously told to write to? The fact that the elder is even asking John the question of who they are, immediately infers that they are another group other than the church. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are. The elder then tells him that "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation. Since the great tribulation is the wrath of God, then the church cannot be that group in white robes, because the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

 

[JesusRules1]

America is not part of the Zechariah prophecy which was fulfilled in the 1st century along with the flowing of the river of life:

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The Living waters of Zechariah is the holy spirit:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

If the living waters prophecy of Zechariah is not fulfilled then no Christian has ever received the holy spirit - we know that that is not so.

We find the companion verse to Zechariah in revelation:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

I'm Spartacus,I'm Locutus.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

All nations shall be gathered together,and how shall America escape,unless they are not a nation,with an operating government,and has to be a future event.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

All nations shall be gathered together against Jerusalem,not only the small Roman Empire that overthrew Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Because Israel as a nation did not accept Jesus as Messiah,God allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem,and scatter the Jews in to the nations,and did not retaliate against the Roman Empire.

But here in Zechariah,God said He will gather all nations against Jerusalem,not only the Roman Empire,but all nations,and when they go against Jerusalem,He will fight them,which could not apply in the first century,for God allowed them to go against Jerusalem without retaliation from God,but in Zechariah God goes against them.

And that is because it is an event that has not happened yet,and try as you might,you cannot say anything contrary to it,for it is obvious that Zachariah is a future event.

And other prophesies that have not come to pass,but is a future event.

Stop it people,believing prophesy has come to pass that has not,because you want to fit it in to your belief system.

Have you not learned from a child that the square peg does not go in to the round hole,or will you keep trying to jam the square peg in to the round hole,saying,it does fit,it does fit.

 

[Locutus]

Actually I'm Smarticus...

I'm assuming you claim to have received the holy spirit - where do you think that came from?

Are there two rivers of life? One for 1st century believers and one for the supposed war some time in the future?

Your "theology" does not jibe with the scriptures.

 

[JesusRules1]

Actually I'm Smarticus...

I'm assuming you claim to have received the holy spirit - where do you think that came from?

Are there two rivers of life? One for 1st century believers and one for the supposed war some time in the future?

Your "theology" does not jibe with the scriptures.

Sorry for the Spartacus,Locutus,remark,I was being silly,and not a cut down on you,but chalk it up to the flesh.

But God said He will gather all nations to go against Israel to battle,and fight against them,which I do not see how that can apply to the first century,for there is no way that all nations of the world could come together to go against Jerusalem.

 

[Locutus]

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather allnations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

There has to be some "care" taken when the scripture uses "all" as in all nations:

(Acts 2:17 KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

In the above Peter quotes Joel - "all flesh" we know from common sense that the spirit was not poured out on all flesh, only believers.

So all does not have to mean all, if you follow my line of "argumentation"

There are elements in the prophecy that can be assigned to the war of 66-70 AD as history attests - "the city shall be taken", "half of the city shall go forth into captivity".

We also know that according to the new testament the holy ghost was poured out "in that day" - in fact it had started at Pentecost and flowed out from Jerusalem:

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

However we try to understand the other elements, the "focusing" element for the whole prophecy is the river of life flowing in that day - from Pentecost onwards.

 

[tanakh]

Revelation would have made more sense if everything had happened in the first century. On the other hand, God is God and there is no doubt in my mind that He intended things to continue up to the present moment and somewhere beyond. To the first century Christian, Babylon would have been the city of Rome, and the beast a Roman Ruler, and the beast empire the empire of Rome. Although Rome does still exist today, the city of Rome that actually ruled the world does not exist, there is no Roman Ruler who rules the world, and the empire of Rome is no more. I realize that some try to keep Rome alive through the RCC, however the RCC has less power and influence in the world today then does Saturday Night Live. The influence of the RCC has been going down for many years and I see no reason why that would change. At one time in history the RCC was so powerful and wicked that many bible teachers were sure that it had to be the beast of Revelation, however all that has changed, unless something radical happens we better look in another direction.

The last days were during the period of the early Church. They started at the ascension of Christ when he received the Kingdom from the Father. They refer to the end of the Old Covenant age which finally came to a close with the destruction of the Temple and the City which were the vital center of the whole system of worship. It was a time of judgement. It is estimated that over a million Jews died in Judea at that time. Josephas who was an eye witness to it and he wrote of the sheer horror of it all.

Jesus warned of this judgement. He told the Disciples that it would happen in their generation. This why the epistles speak of being in the last days. Some examples follow...

Long ago and at many time and in many ways,god spoke to ou fathers the prophets but in these last days
he has spoken to us by his son whom he appointed heir to all things through whom he also created the world

Hebrews 1:1-2

But the precious blood of Christ like that of a Lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

1 Peter 1:19-20

Your Gold and Silver have corroded and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days

James 5:3

Children it is the last hour and as you have heard that antichrist is coming so now many
antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

1 John 2:18

The people who received these letters were unlikely to think they were for us in 2017. The same could be said for Revelation where the words 'soon' and 'quickly' are used

Point is that not everything in the bible is exclusively for our time. I found it interesting to read Matthew Chapters 21-25
It makes more sense that just reading Chapter 24 in isolation as there is a tendency to do.

 

[tanakh]

The word "church" is not mentioned past Rev 4, however the church is clearly described in Rev 7...let me say this more clear, it is impossible that Rec 7 is not describing the church.

Your right unless you believe in the mythical ''Tribulation saints'' who were supposed to have been left behind when the first class variety were raptured before the tribulation started.

 

[88]

There was a change from Old Testament to New Testament----- from law to Grace---- the Old Testament system was gone--- a complete change---- the same thing will happen at the Rapture--- the Day of Grace will end---- it is now a time of Judgment--- the winepress of the Wrath of God --- no more Church preaching the Gospel---- now the preachers are Jewish ( 144,000)--- now we have 2 Witnesses doing Miracles of Judgment upon the wicked----everything is different than the Day if Grace---- even angels are preaching---- fear God and to not take the Mark of the Beast...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your right unless you believe in the mythical ''Tribulation saints'' who were supposed to have been left behind when the first class variety were raptured before the tribulation started.

Tanakh, the great tribulation sainsts are only mythical to those who haven't understood the teaching in Revelation. Espesically when the elder tells John "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation." The "they" are saints and as you can see, they will have come out of the great tribulation.

If you believed in God's word which says that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, and understood that these saints are coming out of the great tribulation period, which is the wrath of God, then your conclusion would be that this group is not the church. As I said before, it is because of incomplete exegesis that you come to a wrong conclusion.