REVELATION
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Hello buddyt,
Would you think that since God the Father gave this information to Jesus to show his servants (believers) the things that must soon take place, as being important? though you are correct that the church will not be here to see those events of God's wrath, what about studying them and using that information to warn unbelievers or even those who are in Christ who don't pay any attention to the book of Revelation?
There are warnings to repent for different types of churches and individual believers within the church. How many churches today are guilty of the same things that Jesus rebuked those five churches for? We have churches who are compromising with God's word in that, as a means of being politically correct and to appease the world, they are supporting same-sex life styles, even marrying men to men and women to women. We have another issue with churches embracing Mystery Babylon, the Roman Catholic institution, stating that there are not any real differences between them and true Christianity.
In Revelation 1:3 there is a blessing for those who read the words of this prophecy and those who hear and guard the words of this prophecy. Likewise, at the end of the book or Revelation, there is a warning for anyone who would add to or take away from the words of the prophecy of Revelation.
I am very confident that it is God's will for us to read this book of Revelation, as it is apart of His word, with special blessings to the reader and the hearer.
I personally use the information in Revelation when testifying about Christ and sharing the word of God with both believers and non believers.
Dig into it and master it!
Hi Ah: I just wonder who taught you? You take a scripture and clearly ADD what you want so that it will mean what you want, very much like one would superimpose something onto a picture in order to change the picture...and you do not seem to have a clue that you are doing it. Rev 4:1 is literally not the rapture of the church, no one would ever get that from Rev 4:1 unless someone told them that is what it meant. If you can make Rev 4:1 the rapture of the church, when there is nothing in Rev 4:1 that tells us that it is the rapture of the church, then of course, you can make any place in the bible say anything that you want it to. God becomes your puppet, you tell Him what to say and what not to say. What you are doing is extremely dangerous in relationship to God because you have replaced God with self. If you have a conviction about pre-trib then so be it, however do not change the word of God. Rev 4:1 is John being called up into Heaven to see the future, that is ALL THAT THE BIBLE SAYS IN THAT SCRIPTURE, it is dangerous to change what God has said into something that you want God to say.
I don't know why you would assume that. Some of us actually do our own studies of God's word. No one has taught me, as these are my own conclusions. I have been doing self studies for over 40 years. I do not add anything to scripture. I simply do a thorough exegesis on all Biblical topics.
Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers, that the Holy Spirit would bring to our remembrance everything that he told us--in our case what we have read--and that He would reveal the things yet still to come. This is how I come about my Biblical information. The Holy Spirit reveals the deeper things of God's word and that is how I know what I am talking about. Call it, spiritual insight provided by the Holy Spirit. Though I've said it before, I will list it here again as to the reasons why Rev.4:1 is representing the gathering of the church:
In Rev.1:19, John was told by the Lord to write the following:
What you have seen = everything written from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
what will take place later = Everything that will take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
The "what is now" i.e. the church period, is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend and the dead will be raised and the living will be transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air. At that time--according to his promise in John 14:1-3--he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places he went to prepare for us.
After the gathering of the church, the "what must take place later" will begin, which is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
That "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16, which is Paul's detailed account of the gathering of the church.
Within chapters 1 thru 3 of Revelation, the word Ekklesia translate church is used 18 times. Within those same chapters, the word hagios translated saints is never used. In opposition, from chapter 4 onward the word Ekklesia/church is never used, but only the word hagios/saints is used throughout the rest of the narrative. The distinction between the use of these words, is God's clue telling us that the church is no longer on the earth from that point forward.
Consequently, you will never see the word Ekklesia/church referred to during the narrative of God's wrath. Make no mistake, that the Holy Spirit ceased in using the word Ekklesia/church is no coincidence, but was done purposely. This brings up another point and that being that, scripture is clear in that those who have received Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which are the events of the "what must take place later" and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. God's wrath begins at Rev.6:1 starting with the opening of the first seal.
It is because you haven't been shown the deep meanings with end-time events. The church being caught up in Rev.4:1 is camouflaged or masked, with John representing the church. That and the fact that the word church goes missing after the end of chapter 3 is very revealing.
God has many things like the above hidden in Revelation who he reveals to those who diligently search out his word. I can't be, as you say, "making the Bible say anything that I want to" if I am providing the scripture for my reasons. I can't help it if God hasn't revealed these things to you.
I am well away of the dangers of adding to or taking away from the prophecy of this book and I would therefore not teach anything that I was not absolutely sure of. I hope that you will look at the information I have provided and pray about. Because what I am telling you is the truth. And I'm going to pretend like I don't know the truth.
The wrath of God must take place in between right now and the time that Christ returns to the earth to end the age. But prior to the beginning of God's wrath, the church must be gathered, which is very near to taking place. Once it does, the world will be a completely different place, for the restrainer will be removed and the man of lawlessness will be revealed with the full force of sin and the wrath of God.
Blessings in Christ
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Hi AH: Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong about the pre-trib rapture. When I really begin to study the bible at 18 years of age I found that everyone was expecting Jesus to return at any moment, invisible except to believers, and definitely before the tribulation period described by Jesus. After two years of daily bible study I asked myself one day, why did Jesus say that He would return after the tribulation while everyone believes that Jesus will return before the tribulation? Since I was young I supposed that I had just not found all the truth yet so I was content to believe in a pre-trib rapture like everyone else, however there was always this voice in my inner man that said, you are believing something that you cannot read out of the bible. I just thought of other things until years later I had some time on my hands and I thought, I am going to see what the bible actually says on this subject. There is not that much scripture, mostly just an assertion that Paul wrote to the Thess of a gathering different from the gathering Jesus gave the church. Well I studied what Jesus said and what Paul said and realized they were describing the same return of Christ...all the evidence in the bible agrees with that..it does not take a rocket scientist to see this, just an honest heart.
****the Rapture fits the Scriptures better than any other view I have found for 40 years----once the Tribulation starts there is a time table until the Lord's return----from the time of the Abomination of Desolation (middle of Tribulation) the Anti-Christ only has 1260 days until Christ returns-----we know no man know the day or hour and the Lord told us to Watch and be Ready---this fits the Rapture---when the Tribulation starts this will be obvious with all the things happening (judgments)---no surprise in that---Christ's 's Parables stress being Prepare and Him coming back unexpectantly ----I will try to post more about this----I do not push the Rapture (just believe it to be true)---have no beef with those who believe Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation...
***here is a little information of the Pre-Trib. Rapture--the key is to be Prepared and to Watch---have oil in your lamp and extra oil (Matthew 25)
[h=3]Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture | Lamb & Lion Ministries[/h]
I thought a Raptor was a type of Dinosaur, made famous by the Jurassic Park movies. I also believe it to be a scientific name for Birds.
***more Pre-Trib. information that you might like to read...
[h=3]An Overview of Pretribulational Arguments - Pre-Trib Research Center -[/h]
****people have no idea how bad the Tribulation will be---literally Hell on Earth---this will be a time of Judgment----about 4 billion people will die in 7 years----that is like 10 World War II's----people will be stung and wish to die---angels will be flying warning people not to take the Mark of the Beast----most of the fresh water in the world will turn to blood----I don't think their will be raptors (Rapture, yes)---but it would not surprise me...
That's my understanding as well. I went to Jurassic Park once but that was at Islands of Adventure in Universal Studios in Orlando, Florida. Didn't actually see any raptors, only the caged enclosure. I could hear screaming inside. I'm sure it was a recording.
Good day 88,
You are absolutely correct here. I have continued to make known the same in that, the wrath of God, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are going to decimate the majority of the worlds population with approx. 50% during the first 3 1/2 years and that is just from the 4th seal (a fourth) and the 6th trumpet (a third) and that is not counting trumpets 1,2 &3 nor the fatalities that will result from the seven bowl judgments. This all fits in perfectly with what Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer no one would be left alive" (Matt.24:22).
People obviously have not looked at the prophecies of the OT prophets regarding the coming day of the Lord nor have they really studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Once the church has been removed this world is going to be a completely different place. The only thing that I would add is that, I believe that your estimate is too reserved in that, I believe that the fatalities will be more towards 90% of the earths population and that because, as previously mentioned, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone they will equal at least half of the worlds population.
For example, the 1st trumpet will result in a third of the earth and trees being burned up. There is no way to know the percentage of fatalities that will result from this, but with a third of the earth being burned up you know that the fatalities will be great!
Following that will be the 2nd trumpet where an object--possibly an asteroid or meteorite--hits in one of the oceans killing all of the creatures in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth and destroying a third of the ships. This will take place due to the gigantic Tsunami's that will result from this object hitting the water. How many people on those ships? The cities and towns an every shore of that body of water 360 degrees will also be destroyed, as well as those a 100 miles inland. How many fatalities will result from this?
How many fatalities will result from the 3rd trumpet which contaminates a third of the rivers and fresh water where it states that many die from drinking the water?
People, and many Christian's, have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.
****Here is some more teaching on the Pre-Trib. Rapture by Charles Stanley---------I have found that the Pre-Trib. position has fallen out of favor over the last 25 years is because people have taught it as an escape-----the reason the Rapture happens is the Church will finish her job on Earth (bringing in the Harvest)----this harvesting will come with great persecution, but not The Great Tribulation. You can not find the---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[h=3]Understanding the End Times: The Rapture - In Touch Ministries[/h]Church in the Tribulation---- you find: angels preaching---144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching---two witnesses preaching and demonstrating God's Judgments---- The Winepress of the Wrath of God ---no longer the will there be Grace but Judgment----seals, bowls, trumpets----devastation and destruction everywhere-----sorry, I don't see the Church in this any more than the Old Testament system of worship is mixed in with the New Testament covenant...
[h=3]Understanding the End Times: The Rapture - In Touch Ministries[/h]Church in the Tribulation---- you find: angels preaching---144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching---two witnesses preaching and demonstrating God's Judgments---- The Winepress of the Wrath of God ---no longer the will there be Grace but Judgment----seals, bowls, trumpets----devastation and destruction everywhere-----sorry, I don't see the Church in this any more than the Old Testament system of worship is mixed in with the New Testament covenant...
Glory be,....... you are funny.......but the Church is around the throne in Chapter 4. In fact, you tune into verse 10...
Matthew 24 speaks of the future.... sorry tanakh you are a few years early. You are Jewish NO? If you are why do you doubt what the Bible states. If you are a Christian, you have nothing to worry about. If you are not, then the times ahead will be real bad for those that are alive.
What would it take to change your minds? or are you both hard core replacement theology groupies .
"it is dangerous to change what God has said into something that you want God to say.",,,Yes I would be very careful about words you are spreading.
In Rev 4:1 John is as you said, taken into heaven. Now consider this,,the Church is mentioned 7 times in the first three chapters and 0 in all the other chapters of Revelation. The 4 and twenty elders in verse 10 alludes to the fact that the Church is now in heaven.
You were right here. There are no prerequisites for the Rapture to happen. The Rapture is Imminent. That is why the Mid trib and Post trib could not work.
Why is it you did not study the OT and all of the NT? It all goes together. It is all one book. Looking from the Beginning to the end, It gives us the Journey mankind has taken to get to the end.