Sinners?

[FreeNChrist]

We are both right. And do you know what the biggest issue is? We are alone.

Deep inside people feel abandoned, and alone, no one understands, no one can reach
them and it is all unfair. Almost everything springs from this loneliness and the hurt.
We defend the hurt and grab as much as we can before someone else does. And when
we have got it, we want to keep as much of it as we can and say, it is ours.

And do you know what the answer is? The cross and forgiveness. You and I are loved
by God, and it is this belief that we are alone and hurt which must be defended at all
costs that dooms us to hell. There is only one behaviour pattern that this spiritual reality
leads to and it is the destruction of others for our benefit, to make us feel more secure
and safe, until nothing is left. But inside nothing changes, it just means we have not
done enough so we need more of everything.

Until Christ is in one, the Holy Spirit dwelling within, and one knows nothing one has, has
value apart from knowing the King, the Lord and Saviour of all.

I used to feel this pain of loneliness and depression. Now I do not.
Everything changes because the life flows from within to without.
If you have let Christ into this place you will understand what I am saying.

If not, I suggest you open the door and ask Him in.

You want to know how a person can really know if they have let Jesus in? When they have stopped thinking it is all about themselves because they now know it is all about Him.

 

[BillG]

You couldn't be more wrong. What people are not open to is seeing the depth of their own sin. Its not only murder that deserves death, but hate. It’s not only adultery that condemns, but lust. Not only theft, but coveting. It’s not only what is done with your hands that is judged, but what is done in your heart. And until a person sees the depth of their own sin they will never see their need for a Savior. Mans primary problem is not psychological, it's spiritual.

I have to say my friend that I do not totally agree with you.

Yes I agree with you that it's not the biggies as such like murder but is also hate, thoughts and what's in your heart.

To me whether Christian or not psychological issues do lead generally to sins that we commit.

Firstly I want to clarify concerning a believer, they have been reborn of the Spirit and if they have and they walk in a way that they know God does not want to then they will not be at peace because they hate what they are doing as the Holy Spirit will convict them.

If a person claims to be believer yet sins without sorrow then one has to question if they are, if after revealing that the grace of God is not a license to sin and still continue with the attitude of "It's ok I can sin all I want and it's forgiven" Then it's time to hand them over to their desires.

However if a believer genuinely hates what they do then it's our duty as brothers/sisters to walk alongside them.

Genuine Believers can look like non believers.

You mention hate, I spent years hating the foster dad who sexually abused me, he was a believer so he says.
I spent years hating my mum for a very bad upbringing (things like severe beatings and full on rejection) which ended up with me being thrown out at the age of 14 and being taken in by my foster dad/mum.

This caused serious issues in my life from severe gambling to sleeping around.
Gambling took me out of the pain and hurt, I even found myself gambling and had no recollection of how I ended up in the gambling establishment. That added to my guilt every time.

Sleeping around was a way of trying to find love and acceptance. That added to me guilt every time.

The issues that led me to gamble and sleep around were not spiritual they were psychological.

I did the above whilst as a Christian. This may lead to some eyebrows being raised. But let me tell you I spent ever day full of guilt and begging God with all my heart to help me. I even got to the stage to ask God to kill me, even though I had a wife and 4 kids. I knew he would take care of them. I woke every night for 15 or so years (2-4 a.m.) with this guilt and asking that question.

Oh by the way did I mention that as a result I had a fear of rejection?

This further compounded my issues because I couldn't come before God for fear of rejection and the stuff mentioned above.

My early church experience was along the lines of "If you do this or don't do that then you are not saved"

I even stopped going church for many many years. I actually lead a very successful youth group. I was actually written off as a non-believer.

During that time no one contacted me. Cut a long story short the new pastor came to visit me. He walked alongside, took me through Freedom in Christ (I had laid my heart before him).

I have not gambled for 6 years, have a lovely relationship with my mum and even prayed with my Foster dad on his deathbed and sorted out his estate.

What changed, why did it change?

Firstly when I realised that I was secure in God, accepted by God and was his precious child this allowed me to ask him to open my straight jacket.

He walked with me (and it was hard and painful) and turned hate and unforgiving Spirit into forgiveness. He healed my psychological issues which helped my spiritual state but that could only happen after he revealed my spiritual state in him.

I have loved you with an everlasting love, never will I leave you or forsake you, I will work good in your circumstances, I have removed your sins as far as the East is from the West, I do not condem you, come as you are.

Oh and the clincher was when Jesus said "Father may your son Bill (me) know that you love him as much as you love me"

Your brother in Christ

Bill

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have to say my friend that I do not totally agree with you.

Yes I agree with you that it's not the biggies as such like murder but is also hate, thoughts and what's in your heart.

To me whether Christian or not psychological issues do lead generally to sins that we commit.

Firstly I want to clarify concerning a believer, they have been reborn of the Spirit and if they have and they walk in a way that they know God does not want to then they will not be at peace because they hate what they are doing as the Holy Spirit will convict them.

If a person claims to be believer yet sins without sorrow then one has to question if they are, if after revealing that the grace of God is not a license to sin and still continue with the attitude of "It's ok I can sin all I want and it's forgiven" Then it's time to hand them over to their desires.

However if a believer genuinely hates what they do then it's our duty as brothers/sisters to walk alongside them.

Genuine Believers can look like non believers.

You mention hate, I spent years hating the foster dad who sexually abused me, he was a believer so he says.
I spent years hating my mum for a very bad upbringing (things like severe beatings and full on rejection) which ended up with me being thrown out at the age of 14 and being taken in by my foster dad/mum.

This caused serious issues in my life from severe gambling to sleeping around.
Gambling took me out of the pain and hurt, I even found myself gambling and had no recollection of how I ended up in the gambling establishment. That added to my guilt every time.

Sleeping around was a way of trying to find love and acceptance. That added to me guilt every time.

The issues that led me to gamble and sleep around were not spiritual they were psychological.

I did the above whilst as a Christian. This may lead to some eyebrows being raised. But let me tell you I spent ever day full of guilt and begging God with all my heart to help me. I even got to the stage to ask God to kill me, even though I had a wife and 4 kids. I knew he would take care of them. I woke every night for 15 or so years (2-4 a.m.) with this guilt and asking that question.

Oh by the way did I mention that as a result I had a fear of rejection?

This further compounded my issues because I couldn't come before God for fear of rejection and the stuff mentioned above.

My early church experience was along the lines of "If you do this or don't do that then you are not saved"

I even stopped going church for many many years. I actually lead a very successful youth group. I was actually written off as a non-believer.

During that time no one contacted me. Cut a long story short the new pastor came to visit me. He walked alongside, took me through Freedom in Christ (I had laid my heart before him).

I have not gambled for 6 years, have a lovely relationship with my mum and even prayed with my Foster dad on his deathbed and sorted out his estate.

What changed, why did it change?

Firstly when I realised that I was secure in God, accepted by God and was his precious child this allowed me to ask him to open my straight jacket.

He walked with me (and it was hard and painful) and turned hate and unforgiving Spirit into forgiveness. He healed my psychological issues which helped my spiritual state but that could only happen after he revealed my spiritual state in him.

I have loved you with an everlasting love, never will I leave you or forsake you, I will work good in your circumstances, I have removed your sins as far as the East is from the West, I do not condem you, come as you are.

Oh and the clincher was when Jesus said "Father may your son Bill (me) know that you love him as much as you love me"

Your brother in Christ

Bill

Jesus Christ is my Savior, not Sigmund Freud.

 

[stonesoffire]

Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

love your signature. We all would be perfect then.

 

[stonesoffire]

freeN...

Sometimes deliverance comes through counseling. Its when we resist the devil...and he flees.

 

[FreeNChrist]

freeN...

Sometimes deliverance comes through counseling. Its when we resist the devil...and he flees.

I didn't say that there are no psychological problems that have psychological solutions, I said that is not man's primary problem. Mans primary problem is spiritual.

 

[stonesoffire]

That's true. But, we don't understand everything perfectly...takes time and His Word and Spirit teaching.

It's so much easier to cast out a spirit but how many churches do this anymore? Very few.

Either way...our minds will still need renewed.

Who and what we are IN Christ!

 

[BillG]

Jesus Christ is my Savior, not Sigmund Freud.

I never said Sigmund Freud was my saviour which given your quote maybe you assume I do. I have never read any of Freud's works.

Modern physcology offers no help. All it offers is coping mechanisms.

Jesus is my saviour, my comforter, my healer. If your suggesting otherwise then you bang of the mark.

 

[BillG]

I didn't say that there are no psychological problems that have psychological solutions, I said that is not man's primary problem. Mans primary problem is spiritual.

But you seem to indicate that psychological problems do not lead to spiritual problems.

 

[BillG]

love your signature. We all would be perfect then.

We sure would.

 

[FreeNChrist]

But you seem to indicate that psychological problems do not lead to spiritual problems.

What I am saying is that failure to maintain a distinction between the psychological and spiritual results in psychologizing spiritual realities, and then looking for humanistic solutions to all of man's problems. Which is exactly what we see Peter here doing. Scripture is clear that man's problem is not primarily psychological, but spiritual.

 

[willybob]

But you seem to indicate that psychological problems do not lead to spiritual problems.

That's because they believe in the Luther, Calvin, Aquinas, Augustine theory of positional righteousness. Its Plutinus thought that came from the mind of Plato and brought into the congregations in the 2nd century...However, the bible teaches manifest reality, the manifestation that Jesus is living in His body of believers, 1 John 4.....Whereas positional righteousness is an imaginative righteousness based on delusions, its really the image of the beast..

 

[Grace777x70]

I can assure everyone that is in Christ that Christ's righteousness that He gives to us is not an imaginative righteousness.

Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him?

I can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

 

[Grace777x70]

We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ. It was spoken of in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 45:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

Isaiah 54:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

 

[willybob]

I find it odd that the hyper-legalists are those who claim God does not
condemn people only satan does.

They also hate reading the law and seeing how the law strictly defines what is
sin and what is not sin.

They want everything to be sinful and righteousness in God to be impossible.
So please let us look at how scripture describes sinful behaviour

sexual immorality, impurity, greed, lust, evil desires, perjury, thefts, magic arts, debauchery,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions
factions, envy, dunkenness, orgies, lying, carousing, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy
slander, arrogance, folly, self-indulgence, depravity

But avoiding and repenting of this behaviour does not make you saved or even righteous
in Gods eyes. But walking in these things is real sin, and is not acceptable for people of
the Kingdom.

Now you will find "hyper-legalism" hates to clearly declare its limits, because the limits
they want are infinite. Getting right with God and walking righteously in Christ was never
their objective, just total discouragement to the point of surrender to failure and only Jesus
and faith can rescue you depraved person as one walks in failure.

Unknowingly they got that idea from Martin Luther...He invented it, its a Luther original...He also invented the magical transfer of virtue built on the former Augustine/Plato concept of positional righteousness...The man was quite a religious scientist, no?

 

[willybob]

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."
Martin Luther

did he actually perceive it was the devil convicting his conscience?

 

[Grace777x70]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells. All of this is from God and not ourselves and we receive Christ's righteousness by grace through faith.

There is only one kind of righteousness - Christ's - which He has given to us who believe.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Since when did Martin Luther become a spokesman for God? Pretty sure God says NOT to sin, boldly or otherwise.. Likewise, sin CAN and DOES separate us from God. Lastly, since when does God tell us to obey satan??? You've copy pasted some dangerous words here, willybob. :/

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."
Martin Luther

 

[willybob]

many people parrot the same thing saying they sin everyday in thought, word, and deed..I hope they dont mean the vile sins of the flesh like Luther perceived that will send their souls to hell...

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."
Martin Luther

did he actually perceive it was the devil convicting his conscience?

Love it. Here's another one.....

"After coming to faith, no one should think that sin can be taken lightly. Sin is truly sin, whether it is committed before or after one comes to know Christ. God always hates sin. Every sin is a mortal sin—a sin that leads to death—as far as the act itself is concerned. But it’s not a mortal sin for the believer. Christ the Reconciler atoned for sin by his death. For unbelievers, not only are all of their sins mortal ones, but even their good works are sins. As Paul says in Romans, “Everything that does not come from faith is sin.” "


― Martin Luther