Sinners?

[OneFaith]

No, this is not going to be a "sinless perfection" thread, where I claim to no longer sin and the rest of you are on your own, LOL!

Rather, I'm wondering whether it's correct to call believers "sinners". Let's look at two definitions of the word:

Sinner (1): one who sins
Sinner (2): one who is unsaved, makes a habit of sinning and who lives a sinful lifestyle.

It is true that even those of us who are saved by Christ still sin. It's just that we gradually sin less and less and remove sinful habits from our lives through His power (although we will never get to a point in this life where we stop sinning completely).

Now some say that believers should not be referred to as "sinners", while others say that it is acceptable because technically we still sin. I think it depends on which of the above definitions one uses.

So what do you guys think? Is it OK to call believers "sinners"? There are no wrong answers.

We are sinners whose sins don't count against them because they are washed away by the blood of Christ (IF we don't take advantage of it). I think it matters in the context in which it is used. We are all sinners because we have all sinned at least once in our lives. But watch this sentence... "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

So obviously, even though all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there is a difference between the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous will quit sinning- again, context. I used to smoke- which was a sin, but I smoke no longer. If there is a reduction in sin (which means growing in Christ), then eventually it can reduce down to nothing. Increase can always continue to increase, but reduction cannot always continue to deduct.

So now it is a matter of whether or not complete reduction happens in our lifetime. Before we explore that thought, it has to be mentioned that it does not matter- once you have sinned one time you are a sinner- whether a forgiven sinner, or an unforgiven sinner.

Yes, it is possible to at some point life the rest of your life without sinning. An elderly man or woman who have lost their physical and mental abilities, can lay in a hospital or nursing home bed for years without commiting sin. Since sin is knowing the good you ought to do and choosing not to do it.

Please understand that that it does not matter how long there is I between your sins, if you are in Christ your sins are washed away. If you remain faithful till the end, and you die while in Christ, you are saved. But many are deceived- either by the self or by false teachers, thinking that they have a license to sin all they want and still remain in Christ.

Its like this... If you are born 7 pounds and 9 oz, and it is your 90th birthday, and you are 8 pounds big, that is impossible. Somewhere along the way, way, way back, you stopped growing- and what does not grow dies. It's like in the movie The 6th Sense- he was in denial that he himself was walking around dead. Same is true spiritually- you must never quit growing in Christ.

Jesus said "I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you have no life in you." Who is He talking to? Is He talking to physically dead people? No. He is talking to Christians (the saved). The Bible is not written to the worldly. We must partake of the Lords Supper, upon the first day of the week, in the assembly of the saints (Christians). Otherwise we have no life in us.

We are not to forsake the assembly. This does not mean perfect attendance, it means we are not to leave the church- which is His body- which is where His blood is. We have no life without His blood. If we confess our sins and have fellowship with God, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (cleanse us from all unrighteousness).

We need to not sin, and trust me God knows if we are trying not to, but if we are in Christ all our sins are washed away.

So the real question is are we or are we not in Christ? This is a present-tense question. The Bible does not support OSAS.

There are only two kinds of people in the world- saved and not saved. All of them have sinned.

"Each of you must work out (ongoing) their salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[PeterJens]

Malice, deceit, causing strife and the slandering of others

malice -the desire to harm someone; ill will, wrongful intention, especially as increasing the guilt of certain offences.
deceit -the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
slander - the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation. make false and damaging statements about (someone)

These are heavy words to bring against anyone.
How can an accusation itself become a way of poisoning the atmosphere?

By saying an innocent loving party is actually evil, destructive and bringing problems.

Now who is accusing believing christians of being pharisees and legalists, those who Jesus
called blind guides, serpents, lost, hard hearted individuals, empty vessels full of dry bones?

Why it is the very person who is using this malice, deceit and slander accusation.
And when does this occur? In every thread almost they enter. So you know the fruit they
are bringing constantly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you seem to indicate that psychological problems do not lead to spiritual problems.

Spiritual problems lead to psychological problems. I do not agree with the modern day thught that because a child was abused they are damaged and will abuse other children.. Or be a murderer or whatever.. We excuse peoples sin to much.

we all have things that happen, And have bad days, Some had bad childhoods and some had bad early adulthoods. But look at the apostles. and all they endured,, Look at the prophets and all they endured, did they go out sinning? No.. And then if nothing else. we have the greatest example of what a bad day really is..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since when did Martin Luther become a spokesman for God? Pretty sure God says NOT to sin, boldly or otherwise.. Likewise, sin CAN and DOES separate us from God. Lastly, since when does God tell us to obey satan??? You've copy pasted some dangerous words here, willybob. :/

he is out there.. Not worth it,, He is worse than some who have come before. His slander is great. He seems angry.. Better to just put on ignore.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ummmmm, no.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9

for some reason they do not get the fact that faith ALWAYS produces work.. Work is not required, it is a natural byproduct..

You do not claim you have faith in someone, yet NEVER do anything they say.. if that happens to occure, Your faith is not real. It was fabricated faith, a claimed faith only, a "DEAD FAITH"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And faith is still not a work. So......

well it is a work so to speak. It is just not our work, or in our work, it is in God..

John 6: It is the WORK OF GOD that you BELIEVE (Have faith) in the one he sent

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Still no.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9

and we can add..

titus 3: 5,, NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but by HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US!

 

[BillG]

Spiritual problems lead to psychological problems. I do not agree with the modern day thught that because a child was abused they are damaged and will abuse other children.. Or be a murderer or whatever.. We excuse peoples sin to much.

we all have things that happen, And have bad days, Some had bad childhoods and some had bad early adulthoods. But look at the apostles. and all they endured,, Look at the prophets and all they endured, did they go out sinning? No.. And then if nothing else. we have the greatest example of what a bad day really is..

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Just so you know I am not excusing sin and never will do. Furthermore I have never excused my sin either. I am we all are responsible for our sin.

I hate my sin with a passion even in those dark days I posted above.

As a genuine believer and follower of Jesus I know my sins are covered.

I also know that there will be consequences here on earth and one day I will stand before him and everything I've done will be laid bare.

I just want to say though we should not judge a book by its cover.

If we see someone blatantly sinning then we should go speak to them, using the bible for correction BUT also leaving room for the Holy Spirit to bring healing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just so you know I am not excusing sin and never will do. Furthermore I have never excused my sin either. I am we all are responsible for our sin.

I hate my sin with a passion even in those dark days I posted above.

As a genuine believer and follower of Jesus I know my sins are covered.

I also know that there will be consequences here on earth and one day I will stand before him and everything I've done will be laid bare.

I just want to say though we should not judge a book by its cover.

If we see someone blatantly sinning then we should go speak to them, using the bible for correction BUT also leaving room for the Holy Spirit to bring healing.

I was not saying you were bro. Just stating my disdain for the modern day culture of using psychology to excuse sin. I saw the pic on facebook, and it hit home, right where it needed to hit. When I look at it, my worse day can't compair with that fateful day christ hung on a cross.

so I can go to him, he does understand,, I also need to think before I start to complain how bad my life is (which that pic is trying to show)

 

[PeterJens]

I do not agree with the modern day thught that because a child was abused they are damaged and will abuse other children.. Or be a murderer or whatever.. We excuse peoples sin to much.

If you want to know someone who has never counselled hurt and destroyed people
this is an example of such a person.

Emotional damage creates massive emotional surges that go somewhere, and if not
healed and helped, they most often destroy someone else.

Once you have lost sensitivity within yourself, continuing in the emotions unleashed is no
barrier. It is why groups like ISIS exposes young people to barbarity, so they have
no difficulty commiting it themselves on others later on. This is the meaning of corruption,
corrupting the mind through exposure to violent or sexual experiences inappropriately.

This has never been about innocence, it is about brutality and facing the brutality
within, and how to heal from deep wounds. Now those who never had these wounds
or know of the wounds they have got, it is an alien world, of mere rules and regulation,
guilt and innocence.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you want to know someone who has never counselled hurt and destroyed people
this is an example of such a person.

If you want to know a person who judges, condemns other people. even though he does not know them, have never met them and does does not have the slightest idea of what they have or have not done.

This is an example of such a person.

I counsel people all the time, I was in the military, I have seen great pain and suffering.. and yes, I counsel people , and have counseled people..

what I refuse to do, is tell people because they have all these problems, it is ok for them to go out and sin.. It amazes me that this man can stand here with a straight face and yell and scream on an almost daily basis about sin and judgment, Yet when someone says that we should not use psychological issues brought about by pain and suffering as an excuse to sin, He judges me for it.


You do not know a thing about me Peter. and I suggest you stop with these personal attacks.

 

[PeterJens]

what I refuse to do, is tell people because they have all these problems, it is ok for them to go out and sin

There is a difference between excuse and cause.
A person may hallucinate they are in a battle situation and kill someone.
It does not make them innocent, but it does explain the situation and the danger.

It can be shown that people have differing drives, anger levels, triggers for reacting
in certain ways. It is important to understand these triggers and adjust behaviour to
take them into account.

"yell and scream" - one cannot do either in text, or had you not noticed EG, lol.

I am not judging anyone. I am saying simply if you disregard what is in the heart of
a person, you cannot empathise or know what it is like to be them.

And in counselling terms, nothing is used but reflection and listening. The whole idea
is to know what is going on inside them, and then helping them to find a way out on
their terms. And with behavioural therapy, it works.

But again this probably has passed EG by, but I am not being judgemental, just pointing
out the obvious things about the heart and what distorts us so easily.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is a difference between excuse and cause.

And here you have it folks, peter believes there are excuses for sin.. (using a "cause" to justify sin is just the same as excusing your sin)

Nothing further needs to be said.. He just proved what we have been saying all along.

 

[PeterJens]

An interesting issue within christian faith is confrontation.

There is a moral framework of damage done to others and the reason why people do it.
And the answer normally is lack of empathy or care.

They do not care others feel or are damaged by the actions of the individual.
A sense of loneliness, isolation and rejection is key. The bigger the cut off the
stronger the lack of care, because all that matters is the desire within.

So if you want to stop people from sinning and starting to care about the damage
they do, they have to get involved, no longer feel isolated and no longer cut off
from others pain.

But this takes admitting the evil one has done, admitting the defences that have
been erected so no more hurt can occur, and learning how to allow being hurt
because the Lords love is overflowing from within.

Once you see this is the seat of where selfishness sits, because the perspective
of another is just not allowed in.

It is why I find it odd, being accused that I do not understand someone else,
when these words are about rejection of others and perspectives that would
cause change and release within which is no longer allowed.

Everything I am sharing is about openness and understanding, letting love in
and stopping defending hurt and ones own rights, because in Christ we have
everything, what we are here and now can be just laid down for another.

So hit me, tell me how bad I am being, what terrible things I am sharing and
desiring, and I will simply say, Christ loves you, and wants you to know this
love in your heart and to stop shutting everyone out. God bless you all,

Peter.

 

[PeterJens]

And here you have it folks, peter believes there are excuses for sin.. (using a "cause" to justify sin is just the same as excusing your sin)

Nothing further needs to be said.. He just proved what we have been saying all along.

Fine EG.

What I said was sin is caused by things in our lives, but we are guilty for the results.
The mistake is saying if you know the cause it is now an excuse.

If we know what the cause is, then we can find a solution.
Anger management programs are based on this principle and they do work.
I have seen an anxious management program, and it again works to reduce the effects of anxiety.

Now in a very real sense this is behavioural changes, guided by the principles of love and care
which Jesus gives us because of the cross.

But I suppose for some, if it is not "spiritual" or "christian" it must be evil.
The idea that simple loving principles are part of Gods gift to all mankind may pass some by.
It does not reduce our dependency on Christ and cross, it actually demonstrates how important
as a foundation this love really is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fine EG.

What I said was sin is caused by things in our lives, but we are guilty for the results.
The mistake is saying if you know the cause it is now an excuse.

which is what I said to begin with,, so I must wonder why you attacked me like you did (you always do)?

If we know what the cause is, then we can find a solution.
Anger management programs are based on this principle and they do work.
I have seen an anxious management program, and it again works to reduce the effects of anxiety.

Now in a very real sense this is behavioural changes, guided by the principles of love and care
which Jesus gives us because of the cross.

But I suppose for some, if it is not "spiritual" or "christian" it must be evil.
The idea that simple loving principles are part of Gods gift to all mankind may pass some by.
It does not reduce our dependency on Christ and cross, it actually demonstrates how important
as a foundation this love really is.

The bible says the cause of sin is pride, It is self, It is not looking to love others no matter how bad your circumstances get.

The solution?

GOD!

any solution apart from God is no solution at all..

Anger management is useless unless you get to the root of the anger (selfishness) we may be able to get the person to do something else when he gets angry,, but we will not solve the root issue unless we solve the root cause.. and at best, apart from God may have a temporary fix, but no healing.

 

[PeterJens]

which is what I said to begin with,, so I must wonder why you attacked me like you did (you always do)?

I am not attacking you.
I am bringing a different perspective and being critical of your definitive statements.
You need to take a chill pill.

And it is obvious you are not able to distinguish between emotional disorders and faith.
Christians and non-christian can suffer from these equally despite faith being involved
in a believer. A lot of our emotional behaviour is linked to hormones and cycles in the
brain. It is why I am interested in how Jesus brings the two aspects together.

To me you appear not to have grasped hurt and loneliness drive most disfunctional
behaviour. The most disfunctional, psychopaths have no empathy at all and therefore
often have no conscience or guilt, and are unaware of the consequences of their actions.

It makes me wonder if in a real sense such a person can ever truly know Christ.
And it might explain why some pour scorn on hurt and sorrow over sin, as if this
is just a self indulgent response. To anyone with real empathy this is just so
wrong. Some pain destroys peoples lives completely and they find it hard to
ever recover, yet if one caused such pain, feeling any sorrow is self indulgent.

No. If you do not feel sorrow, you do not understand the consequences of
what one has done. And oneself is probably cut off from empathy to a real
degree.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not attacking you.

I am bringing a different perspective and being critical of your definitive statements.

You need to take a chill pill.

And it is obvious you are not able to distinguish between emotional disorders and faith.
Christians and non-christian can suffer from these equally despite faith being involved
in a believer. A lot of our emotional behaviour is linked to hormones and cycles in the
brain. It is why I am interested in how Jesus brings the two aspects together.

Tome you appear not to have grasped hurt and loneliness drive most disfunctional
behaviour. The most disfunctional, psychopaths have no empathy at all and therefore
often have no conscience or guilt, and are unaware of the consequences of their actions.


It makes me wonder if in a real sense such a person can ever truly know Christ.
And it might explain why some pour scorn on hurt and sorrow over sin, as if this
is just a self indulgent response. To anyone with real empathy this is just so
wrong. Some pain destroys peoples lives completely and they find it hard to
ever recover, yet if one caused such pain, feeling any sorrow is self indulgent.

No. If you do not feel sorrow, you do not understand the consequences of
what one has done. And oneself is probably cut off from empathy to a real
degree.

question Peter. Did the brutal dictators who slaughters hundreds, maybe thousands of people feel sorry for their sins? does that mean they all have psychological issues? Should we have sen them all to these doctors and send them to anger management classes?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

using emotional aspects to determine what is right and wrong, and how good or evil you are is the most dangerous thing anyone can do.

it is why people are blind to sin, and do evil things and have no emotional feeling, because they have deadened their senses to it..

it is one thing for someone to get so angry they end up doing something major (like murder) but that person usually repents right after (even though he will still suffer the consequences) and he will most likely suffer the rest of his or her life because of what he did.

that id DIFFERENT than a mass murderer, sexual preditor etc etc

 

[PeterJens]

question Peter. Did the brutal dictators who slaughters hundreds, maybe thousands of people feel sorry for their sins? does that mean they all have psychological issues? Should we have sen them all to these doctors and send them to anger management classes?

Dictators do have psychological issues. It does not make them innocent of murder or abuse.
And yet they do need support and help because for some it does actually help.

And if you are not sorry for your sins, why would you ever know that you did anything wrong?

The whole of scripture is an appeal to man to say, God is saying, "you will die because of sin,
but here I am ready to help those who will listen and follow my ways."

Why are you antagonistic about this obvious reality?
In the final analysis Jesus is the best medicine for our health and psychology.