REVELATION

[so-jesus-e-deus]

I believe the Spirit can reveal truth to to those willing...ready... all scripture is profitable.

It's a beautiful letter.

I totally agree and add: it is the only book of Holy Scripture that has a direct promise to anyone who reads:

• "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Revelation 1.3).

​

 

[samuel23]

Question: Why would Jesus tell Peter, James, John, and Andrew, that He would return AFTER the great tribulation to gather the chosen? Why is the word chosen used throughout the NT to describe the church both Jew and gentile? Why did Jesus tell the apostles to teach to the church everything that he had taught them(that would include His return). What return of Christ to gather the believers did the church believe in BEFORE Paul was converted and wrote the Thess letters(there was only the return described by Jesus). None of these questions can be answered by the pre-trib crowd because to answer them would be to prove pre-trib to be false.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello samuel23,

Question: Why would Jesus tell Peter, James, John, and Andrew, that He would return AFTER the great tribulation to gather the chosen?

First of all, you have to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Until you understand this, your end-time conclusions will all be in error.

Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then those believers who are alive at that time will be transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air where he will take us back to the Father's house.

At the gathering of the church Jesus does not return to the earth, he only comes to resurrect the dead and change the living where takes the entire group to the Father's house in heaven.

In opposition, after God's wrath has been completed, at the end of that seven years, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age. In addition, when He returns at that time, those who will have previously been resurrected and the living who were changed, will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses - Rev.17:14, 19:14

Gathering of the church = Jesus meets us in the air and removes believers from the earth

Second Coming = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and the church returns with the Lord to the earth

Another important factor that you are not understanding is that, there will be other groups on the earth after the church has been gathered. There will be the 144,000 from twelve tribes of Israel, the woman of Rev.12 (unbelieving Israel) and the great tribulation saints, who are said to be from every tribe, nation, people and language, which makes them all Gentiles. These groups are not the church, but will be here during the time of God's wrath, during that last seven years.

To answer your question, when Jesus told Peter, James, John and Andrew that he would return after the great tribulation, he was speaking of his return to the earth and was not referring to the gathering of the church. The on-going problem is that, people merge these two events together as being the same event, which causes their error in properly interpreting end-time events.

What return of Christ to gather the believers did the church believe in BEFORE Paul was converted and wrote the Thess letters(there was only the return described by Jesus).

In Paul's letter to the Corinthians, he reveals the gathering of the church as a mystery (1 Cor.15:52), where the Lord's return was not a mystery, for they were all aware of that teaching. Paul through direct revelation from the Lord received the information regarding the event of the living being transformed and being caught up at the time immediately following the resurrection. Regarding this, Paul did not say that the Lord was returning to the earth at this event, but coming to gather the church and to change the living and that we would meet him in the air.

Both John 14:1-3 & 1 Thes.4:13-17 has the Lord coming to get the church and taking them back to heaven. Whereas Matt.24:30-31, Jude 14 & Rev.17:14, 19:11-21 has the Lord returning to the earth and the church with him.

 

[samuel23]

AH....no,no,no I do not have to accept that there are two separate returns, that idea is not in the NT and was unheard of until around 1830 when it was created by John Darby.

 

[Ahwatukee]

AH....no,no,no I do not have to accept that there are two separate returns, that idea is not in the NT and was unheard of until around 1830 when it was created by John Darby.

Well then, you will never understand these end-time events then. Once again, they are not two returns. One event is to gather the church and the other is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Please consider the scripture below:

"In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

So, in the scripture above, Jesus tells his disciples and including all believers, that he (Jesus) was going back to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare a place for all believers. The second part of that promise is when the Lord to comes back and takes us back to the Father's house. His coming back to get us will be the fulfillment of 1 Thes.4:13-17.

That the church is gathered prior to the Lord's return to end the age, fits with the fact that the church is already seen in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:6-8. And then in Rev.19:11-21 reveals the church following Christ out of heaven wearing her fine linen, white and clean that she will have just previously received. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would have to have already been in heaven.

I feel sorry for you, for you seem to have adopted a false teaching and are now fighting tooth and nail to protect it. Even your mention of John Darby is just repeating what others use as an apologetic. The fact is that, I have never read anything by John Darby, but arrived at my understanding of end-time events solely from scripture.

 

[88]

Question: Why would Jesus tell Peter, James, John, and Andrew, that He would return AFTER the great tribulation to gather the chosen? Why is the word chosen used throughout the NT to describe the church both Jew and gentile? Why did Jesus tell the apostles to teach to the church everything that he had taught them(that would include His return). What return of Christ to gather the believers did the church believe in BEFORE Paul was converted and wrote the Thess letters(there was only the return described by Jesus). None of these questions can be answered by the pre-trib crowd because to answer them would be to prove pre-trib to be false.

*** you can't prove that the Rapture could not be taught by Paul as a new insight into His purpose---- Peter did the same thing later on by teaching salvation to the Gentiles--- this was not previously taught by anyone ( even Jesus said He was sent to Israel--- not to Gentile "dogs") until Peter got a trance vision which directed him to preach to the Gentiles...

 

[88]

Question: Why would Jesus tell Peter, James, John, and Andrew, that He would return AFTER the great tribulation to gather the chosen? Why is the word chosen used throughout the NT to describe the church both Jew and gentile? Why did Jesus tell the apostles to teach to the church everything that he had taught them(that would include His return). What return of Christ to gather the believers did the church believe in BEFORE Paul was converted and wrote the Thess letters(there was only the return described by Jesus). None of these questions can be answered by the pre-trib crowd because to answer them would be to prove pre-trib to be false.

*** the word elect or chosen which Christ uses refers to those He is working with---- it does not necessarily include the Church--- when people read the Church into the Tribulation it may be because they believe the Church has replaced Israel--- this is false and the elect is not a definite gathering of the Church-- rather those who He is gathering...

 

[88]

AH....no,no,no I do not have to accept that there are two separate returns, that idea is not in the NT and was unheard of until around 1830 when it was created by John Darby.

*** I have posted this previously that many early Church fathers spoke of the Rapture including Ephaem the Syrian---- he spoke of being taken from the Tribulation also Cyprian, Tertullian, and Irenauas all taught a pre- tribulation Rapture...

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

*** I have posted this previously that many early Church fathers spoke of the Rapture including Ephaem the Syrian---- he spoke of being taken from the Tribulation also Cyprian, Tertullian, and Irenauas all taught a pre- tribulation Rapture...

The 1830 false information is profound. It's almost as profound as the documentary film Zeitgeist. Where the lie about Jesus being the same as Osiris and Horus became popular in 2010 or so. The lie has always been around; only just popularized by the film because of the nature of the internet.

The 1830 false hood has always been around, but was popularized by Steven Anderson in his film "After the Tribulation." Where he completely butchers the book of revelation. He divides the book in half and says they are the same accounts, just told a different way. This is what he believes. He also believes we replaced Israel and doesn't believe in dispensations from God nor does he accept the revelation of the mystery given to Paul. He too, like most, say Paul and Peter have the same message lool. Even thought Paul says what was revealed to him personally from Christ was a mystery, secret, HID in God.

 

[88]

I was talking a little about Chapter 4 and the Rapture "Come up here,..." and maybe we can talk about the Throne of God ect. later---right now I wanted to focus on the 4 Living Creatures (Cherubim) I sure there is much to talk about here but my focus was the fact that each face represents one of the Gospels----face of a lion (Matthew--lion of the tribe of Judah)----face of a man (Luke---the physician revealed the son of man)----the face of an eagle---(Gospel of John which show Christ in His Diety----Word became flesh)----the face of an ox---(Mark represent Christ as the servant)-----Here's a question---why and how can these living creatures created so long ago be continuously proclaiming holy, holy, holy---without stopping ...?

 

[88]

I want to continue into Chapter 5 of Revelation ---- but review a little--- the book is divided into three parts (Revelation 1:19)--- things John had seen (Jesus Christ)----things that were (7 actual Churches in Chapters 2 and 3 he was writing to) ---- and things which shall be hereafter (Rapture ---- Tribulation --- 2nd Coming)******** Chapters 2 and 3 are 7 letters to 7 Churches in Asia Minor ( present day Turkey)---- to correct and encourage them***** Chapter 4 has the Rapture ( Revelation 4:1---"Come up here") and the Throne of God -------4 Living Creatures (Cherubim)********* Chapter 5 starts with God the Father holding the Scroll with 7 Seals (title deed of the Earth) ---- this title deed was important for God's authority to be established in the Earth ( Millennial Reign of Christ)--- and John cried because no man could qualify to open this authority to the Earth---- but the Lamb could who was a man and also God (having full authority --- 7 horns and 7 eyes ---- full power)--- He overcame death, hell, and the grave***** the 24 elders now sing a new song... (continue on next post...)

 

[88]

I want to continue Chapter 5 with the song the 24 elders sing and its significance, but here are a few questions to consider********* 1. Who are the 24 elders...? 2. Why are there 24 of them...? 3. What us the significance of the New Song...?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello 88,

Chapter 5 starts with God the Father holding the Scroll with 7 Seals (title deed of the Earth) ---- this title deed was important for God's authority to be established in the Earth ( Millennial Reign of Christ)--- and John cried because no man could qualify to open this authority to the Earth-[

The scroll that the Lamb/Jesus takes out of the right hand of the Father, is the very book of Revelation which we are reading. Please consider the following:

"Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals.

"He (The Lamb) went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne."

"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals"

The scroll contains the information of the "what must take later," which begins with the seals, followed by the trumpets and the bowl judgments, including all of the related information.

The scroll that Jesus took from the Father's hand, is the book of Revelation itself, which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show his servants (all believers) what must soon take place.

 

[88]

Time to look a little at Chapter 6 of Revelation-----the Lamb opens the first seal during the Tribulation---- the Church has already been Raptures and all Hell is about to break loose----the First Seal is the white horse whose rider is the Anti-Christ--- he goes forth to conquer through peace--- he has a bow but no arrows---- the 2nd Seal is the red horse of war to take peace from the Earth*** the 3rd Seal is the black horse of famine----- the 4th horse was pale with Death as the rider given power to kill about 2 billion people ( one fourth of the Earth's population)-----this will be a terrible time iof judgment and destruction--- Hell on Earth--- worse than any time ever on Earth....

 

[Ahwatukee]

I want to continue Chapter 5 with the song the 24 elders sing and its significance, but here are a few questions to consider********* 1. Who are the 24 elders...? 2. Why are there 24 of them...? 3. What us the significance of the New Song...?

Good evening 88,

The twenty four elders are represented by the twelve tribes of Israel whose names are written on the gates of the New Jerusalem and the twelve apostles whose names are written on the foundation walls of the New Jerusalem. The twenty four elders are representing Israel and the church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Time to look a little at Chapter 6 of Revelation-----the Lamb opens the first seal during the Tribulation---- the Church has already been Raptures and all Hell is about to break loose----the First Seal is the white horse whose rider is the Anti-Christ--- he goes forth to conquer through peace--- he has a bow but no arrows---- the 2nd Seal is the red horse of war to take peace from the Earth*** the 3rd Seal is the black horse of famine----- the 4th horse was pale with Death as the rider given power to kill about 2 billion people ( one fourth of the Earth's population)-----this will be a terrible time iof judgment and destruction--- Hell on Earth--- worse than any time ever on Earth....

Agreed! The only thing that I would add is that the first seal is not opened "during the tribulation" but is what in fact initiates the tribulation. It is good to see that someone else has the truth of God's word and the confirmation of the Spirit regarding end-time events. I get weary and frustrated as I continue to see the false teachings that is posted regarding end-time events and the book of Revelation.

Regarding the 1st seal, the rider on the white horse, I created the following document some years ago, just as a comparison of the 1st seal rider vs. the rider of Rev.19:11-21. The 1st seal rider being a counterfeit--the antichrist--of the rider of chapter 19.

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.6:1-2:
· Holds a bow
· Was given a crown
· Rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest Rider on the White Horse of Rev.19:1-16:
· Rider is called Faithful and True
· With justice He judges and makes war
· His eyes are like blazing fire
· On his head are many crowns
· Has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself
· Is dressed in a robe dipped in blood
· His name is the Word of God
· Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
· He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty
· On his robe and on his thigh the name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

 

[88]

Good evening 88,

The twenty four elders are represented by the twelve tribes of Israel whose names are written on the gates of the New Jerusalem and the twelve apostles whose names are written on the foundation walls of the New Jerusalem. The twenty four elders are representing Israel and the church.

**** I like that view and see support for it, but also came across this idea ---- the 24 elders sing a New Song ( Revelation 5:9)---- their song of praise is for redemption--- having been redeemed out if "every" kindred, tongue, people, and nation---- this sounds more like just the Church--- the other view is also solid---- if it is just the Church what does 24 have to do with the Church--- I know the number 12 represents government---- 12 Apostles--- 12 Tribes of Israel---- so if 24 represents the Church I might guess that would represent the 12 Apostles and twelve more individuals picked by the Lord throughout Church history...

 

[tanakh]

****Here is some more teaching on the Pre-Trib. Rapture by Charles Stanley---------I have found that the Pre-Trib. position has fallen out of favor over the last 25 years is because people have taught it as an escape-----the reason the Rapture happens is the Church will finish her job on Earth (bringing in the Harvest)----this harvesting will come with great persecution, but not The Great Tribulation. You can not find the---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Understanding the End Times: The Rapture - In Touch Ministries

Church in the Tribulation---- you find: angels preaching---144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching---two witnesses preaching and demonstrating God's Judgments---- The Winepress of the Wrath of God ---no longer the will there be Grace but Judgment----seals, bowls, trumpets----devastation and destruction everywhere-----sorry, I don't see the Church in this any more than the Old Testament system of worship is mixed in with the New Testament covenant...

So there will no longer be grace but judgement plus the Holy Spirit has left the Earth along with the Church. Who are the 1444000 preaching to and what is the point of them doing so if there is only Judgement left.

Also in Revelation 7:9-17 John sees the following...

After this I looked and behold I saw a great multitude that no man could number from every Nation,from all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the Lamb clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands and crying with a loud voice salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to to the Lamb.And all the Angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God saying Amen Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever Amen. Then one of the elders addressed me and said Who are these clothed in white robes and whence have they come? And he said to me These are they who have come out of the great tribulation they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God and serve him day and night within his temple and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence They shall hunger no more neither thirst anymore the Sun shall not strike them nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb shall be in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd and he will guide them to springs of living water and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

This is an interesting passage. Firstly there is a huge crowd of people that no one can count from about every group on earth all dressed in Bride - Like white robes cleansed through the shed blood of Christ, (The Lamb) that have come out of the great tribulation. According to the Pre Trib belief the Church is raptured before the tribulation starts and this huge crowd that is dressed in white, serves in Gods temple day and night and comes out of the tribulation are another group
known as Tribulation Saints which is a term not found anywhere. Also there is much emphasis on the idea that the Church is not mentioned after Chapter four in Revelation. The strange thing is that in this chapter the Church Bride is not mentioned as a separate group here either. Could it be that this great crowd that no one can number dressed in Bridal White and coming out of the tribulation could in fact be the mysteriously missing church/Bride after all? Splitting the Tribulation seems to be artificial. Gods judgements are progressive Actually there is no place where the term seven year tribulation is ever used

 

[88]

Agreed! The only thing that I would add is that the first seal is not opened "during the tribulation" but is what in fact initiates the tribulation. It is good to see that someone else has the truth of God's word and the confirmation of the Spirit regarding end-time events. I get weary and frustrated as I continue to see the false teachings that is posted regarding end-time events and the book of Revelation.

Regarding the 1st seal, the rider on the white horse, I created the following document some years ago, just as a comparison of the 1st seal rider vs. the rider of Rev.19:11-21. The 1st seal rider being a counterfeit--the antichrist--of the rider of chapter 19.

Rider on the White Horse of Rev.6:1-2:
· Holds a bow
· Was given a crown
· Rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest Rider on the White Horse of Rev.19:1-16:
· Rider is called Faithful and True
· With justice He judges and makes war
· His eyes are like blazing fire
· On his head are many crowns
· Has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself
· Is dressed in a robe dipped in blood
· His name is the Word of God
· Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations
· He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty
· On his robe and on his thigh the name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

**** good point--- it sounds a little like Daniel 9:27--- the Anti-Christ confirming the covenant of peace ( death) with Israel...

 

[88]

So there will no longer be grace but judgement plus the Holy Spirit has left the Earth along with the Church. Who are the 1444000 preaching to and what is the point of them doing so if there is only Judgement left.

Also in Revelation 7:9-17 John sees the following...

After this I looked and behold I saw a great multitude that no man could number from every Nation,from all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the Lamb clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands and crying with a loud voice salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to to the Lamb.And all the Angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God saying Amen Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever Amen. Then one of the elders addressed me and said Who are these clothed in white robes and whence have they come? And he said to me These are they who have come out of the great tribulation they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God and serve him day and night within his temple and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence They shall hunger no more neither thirst anymore the Sun shall not strike them nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb shall be in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd and he will guide them to springs of living water and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

This is an interesting passage. Firstly there is a huge crowd of people that no one can count from about every group on earth all dressed in Bride - Like white robes cleansed through the shed blood of Christ, (The Lamb) that have come out of the great tribulation. According to the Pre Trib belief the Church is raptured before the tribulation starts and this huge crowd that is dressed in white, serves in Gods temple day and night and comes out of the tribulation are another group
known as Tribulation Saints which is a term not found anywhere. Also there is much emphasis on the idea that the Church is not mentioned after Chapter four in Revelation. The strange thing is that in this chapter the Church Bride is not mentioned as a separate group here either. Could it be that this great crowd that no one can number dressed in Bridal White and coming out of the tribulation could in fact be the mysteriously missing church/Bride after all? Splitting the Tribulation seems to be artificial. Gods judgements are progressive Actually there is no place where the term seven year tribulation is ever used

**** Daniel 9:27 talks about the 7 year period ruled by the Anti-Christ----- these saved souls are the remnant left on the Earth who never heard the Gospel or became believers because of materials left by Christians explaining what happened (Rapture) --- Revelation 6:9 talks about slain martyrs for the Word of God---- Tribulation Saints ---- not the Church--- gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church---- they will finish the harvest and be Raptured--- after the harvest there are gleaners who gather souls that nothing be lost...