The Rapture of the Church

[buddyt]

Ahwatukee

You fail to understand we have two bodies a flesh body and a spirit body. Jesus body not found in the grave had to be this way. If it weren't nonbelievers would have said it wasn't him whom they had seen. He had to in the flesh be removed. Even angles in the bible would appear out of nowhere and speak. The notion you have as having the same body we have now is totally out of line. While I do respect you being a Christian and wanting to help others to learn. I just believe your way off base here.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Gary: concerning scripture that flesh and blood will not be raised. You fool(Paul said that not me) that which you sow is not quickened(made alive) except it die(death of flesh body), that which you sow( dead body in ground), you sow NOT that body that shall be(what is resurrected is NOT the flesh body you buried)...this I say brethren, flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God 1Cor 15. I am not contentious on this subject, I just do not see a scenario where the flesh is resurrected and then changed into a heavenly body and without any life in it(no spirit) it flies off into the sky to meet a disembodied spirit and they come together in the sky. Being with God yet being resurrected is one of the most difficult places in the bible to reconcile.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Popeye, all those who believe and teach a pre-trib rapture are followers of John Darby because he was the person who came up with the idea and went around the country convincing people it was true. Just like you are similar to your great grand father whether you like it or not, so you first heard of a pre-trib rapture from someone who was taught it from someone who got it from someone who got it from John Darby. Apart from the John Darby influence you would never find a pre-trib rapture in the NT because it is not there.

 

[Crustyone]

Excuse me for jumping in. The tribulation that has been going on for 2000 years up to right now, is the trials and tribulation that Jesus said all believers would have, which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Those people did not suffer the wrath of God. The tribulation that is coming is the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.



As a true believer in Christ, I will speak for my self: my faith is not based on when the gathering of the church takes place, but on the shed blood of Christ. From studying end-time events, I would know the antichrist the moment I saw him on the news establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. That said, If for some reason I was here to see him, I would immediately begin to pray that God would give me the strength to keep my testimony for Christ and the word and all that I knew was coming.

Does it make sense for the Lord to send his church through his wrath when the wrath that we deserve was already poured out upon him? When a person comes to Christ, they are reconciled to God and credited with righteousness. That being the case, there would be no reason for God to send us through his wrath.



And rightly so, for Christ promised to keep believers out of the time of his wrath, which all believers should be having faith in. Instead, we have those who believe that after the Lord builds his church, that he is then going to send them through his wrath.

This coming wrath will be upon all of those who have rejected Christ and continued living according to the sinful nature, which the church will have already repented of. The on-going error is that people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The entire world will be affected. There will be no where to hide! By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all the governments dismantled.


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As to your third paragraph, Jesus told us that all people will be punished by their Father for their sins and I grant you that Christians have been punished throughout history, and so many of the churches of today are so far off base in their teachings that I don't find it impossible to believe that many Christians will suffer through God's wrath. Considering how he protected Lot and Noah, I don't find it hard to believe that some Christians won't suffer much and others will suffer mightily during His wrath, if we are to remain through His wrath. The punishment must be dealt to those whose time is short or there wouldn't be any fairness, and He does punish his wayward children. Fortunately He punishes His children on earth, not in the Lake of Fire like "Satan's children".

 

[Crustyone]

Hi Gary: concerning scripture that flesh and blood will not be raised. You fool(Paul said that not me) that which you sow is not quickened(made alive) except it die(death of flesh body), that which you sow( dead body in ground), you sow NOT that body that shall be(what is resurrected is NOT the flesh body you buried)...this I say brethren, flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God 1Cor 15. I am not contentious on this subject, I just do not see a scenario where the flesh is resurrected and then changed into a heavenly body and without any life in it(no spirit) it flies off into the sky to meet a disembodied spirit and they come together in the sky. Being with God yet being resurrected is one of the most difficult places in the bible to reconcile.

I don't find this hard to reconcile for some reason, am I dumber than most? My reasoning is that our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, so why not dead bodies? As far as souls being reunited with bodies, the bible tells us that when we are made God breaths the "breath of life" into us and when we die our spirits go back to God, so when he resurrects us He then puts the "breath of life" back in our bodies, our spirit bodies, which are flesh and bone, as is Jesus' body. I do have a simple mind.

 

[Ahwatukee]

As to your third paragraph, Jesus told us that all people will be punished by their Father for their sins and I grant you that Christians have been punished throughout history, and so many of the churches of today are so far off base in their teachings that I don't find it impossible to believe that many Christians will suffer through God's wrath.

For the record, I am not talking about wayward children. I'm talking about the true Christian. The one who mains faithful to Christ. Did Christ suffer for nothing? For those who have received Christ, who have repented and continue in faith, who have been reconciled to God and have been credited with righteousness, God is not going to send these through his wrath. Because for those people, Christ already suffered the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. The wrath of God no longer rests upon us, because it was placed on Christ.

It seems to me that people are claiming to trust in Christ for their salvation, but there words betray themselves. How can one say "I trust in Christ" and at the same time believe that he is going to send us through his wrath. To send the church through the wrath of God, would be to set Christ's punishment that he suffered on our behalf as having no value.


The other on-going problem is that people don't understand the severity and magnitude of the God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, it will result In approx. 50% of the earths population be killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor of the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments.

The bottom line is that, instead of people trusting in the Lord's promise that he rescues us from and keeps us out of the coming wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer wrath, instead people are anticipating going through God's wrath. It would infer that we really weren't reconciled to God nor were we credited with righteousness, because you have believers in Christ going through the same wrath as the wicked.

As for me and others who understand the word of God through the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, we are going to be gathered, according to his promise, prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee

You fail to understand we have two bodies a flesh body and a spirit body. Jesus body not found in the grave had to be this way. If it weren't nonbelievers would have said it wasn't him whom they had seen. He had to in the flesh be removed. Even angles in the bible would appear out of nowhere and speak. The notion you have as having the same body we have now is totally out of line. While I do respect you being a Christian and wanting to help others to learn. I just believe your way off base here.

I've heard that teaching before, but it is a lie. Jesus resurrected in the same body that he was buried in and remains in as I post this. His bodily resurrection is the example and hope of all who have believed in him. His appearing in the flesh was not just a pretense. All you are doing is creating an apologetic in order to support your belief.

You are obviously not familiar with scripture, for not only are the righteous going to be raised bodily, but the unrighteous receive a resurrected body as well at the great white throne judgment.

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If it has nothing to do with the body, why bother with the grave? The bodies of the dead are in graves. Read those scriptures and understand what they are saying. As it is, what you are proclaiming is detrimental to your salvation, because you are only believing that Christ rose bodily as a pretense. Christ is in the same body that he was buried in, in the same body that resurrected in, the same body that he appeared to his disciples in, the same body that he ascended into heaven in and the same body that he will be in when he comes to gather the church. He will be in the same body when he returns to the earth to end the age.


"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay."

 

[Bladerunner]

Amen to that! And this is doubly confirmed in Joel 2:31 which clearly and specifically explains that God's wrath only begins AFTER the cosmic signs. Exactly as described in Rev. 6.

Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

The cosmic signs HAVE to occur before the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord HAS to occur AFTER the cosmic signs.

Case closed.

It seems to me you are talking in circles,,,,sorry,,, You said the prophecy of Joel 2:31 happened in Rev 6 and you also said that it suppose to happen prior to the day of the Lord and the Bible tells us that it does. There was a time limit on it of 7 years...before the Lord returned. EXACTLY----YOU GOT IT my Friend YEAHHH!!!!!!!

Now, What a coincidence because Ahwatukee told you that the tribulations started in REV 6:12-17 and these verses even tell you God's Wrath was upon Mankind. But you don't want to believe that.......Welll..........................

 

[Bladerunner]

However, parts of it overlap other parts...

a good day to you GaryA....but I do not understand unless you mean 'man's killing of the people'....If this is the case, God has down through the ages used man's enemies to handout his wrath of death in addition to his supernatural wrath. There are four types of Wrath from God we see in the Bible across the ages that most scholars will agree upon...There is this type of wrath (Eschatological), then there are three others.

 

[samuel23]

Hi AH, you made a mistake, Jesus did come out of the tomb in the same body that he went into the tomb with, however when Jesus died in his flesh body, then in His spirit body he went into the world of the dead, otherwise how could He be with the thief THAT DAY? Also Peter said that in spirit that Jesus went and preached the gospel to those who had died. Buddyt is correct in this area, we are a spirit being that is a soul and we live in a body. Jesus said to not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul...the soul is the actual person that we are, and we can live in a physical body and we can live outside a physical body.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hi AH, you made a mistake, Jesus did come out of the tomb in the same body that he went into the tomb with, however when Jesus died in his flesh body, then in His spirit body he went into the world of the dead, otherwise how could He be with the thief THAT DAY? Also Peter said that in spirit that Jesus went and preached the gospel to those who had died. Buddyt is correct in this area, we are a spirit being that is a soul and we live in a body. Jesus said to not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul...the soul is the actual person that we are, and we can live in a physical body and we can live outside a physical body.

WHo are you talking too Samuel?

 

[samuel23]

The day when Christ returns to gather the church is also the day of God's wrath...before that it is natural disasters, disease, wars, persecution of believers by the AC...a terrible time but not the wrath of God

 

[samuel23]

AHWA POST 127

 

[Bladerunner]

The Best way i can answer this question is to show you a Timeline Picture.

View attachment 167584

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

You are not asking the right question?////It should be is there a GAP in between the Rapture and the Beginning of the 7 years tribulations. The Great Tribulations are the last 3.5 years of Daniels 7 years of Jacobs troubles.

The answer to this question is YES

 

[Crustyone]

Ahwatukee, I was not talking about wayward children either, or maybe I was. All of us are wayward to some degree, otherwise we would be perfect already. When Jesus died for us, He saved us from the lake of fire, not from daily punishment that most of us deserve, as God deems necessary. Hebrews 12:4-11 ([FONT=&quot]4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.)[/FONT]

 

[Bladerunner]

The day when Christ returns to gather the church is also the day of God's wrath...before that it is natural disasters, disease, wars, persecution of believers by the AC...a terrible time but not the wrath of God

NOT so samuel23..... Read the scriptures..

 

[samuel23]

Hi Blade: I never say anything that I do not know is in scripture. 2Thess 1, When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angles in flaming fire taking vengeance on then that know not God when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to all them that believe in Him. Jesus returns to gather the church and punish the evil doers...one coming,two things.

 

[Issachar92]

After studying long and hard I put together a list of bible verses that conclusively PROVE the pre-trib rapture, here it is:

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[Locutus]

After studying long and hard I put together a list of bible verses that conclusively PROVE the pre-trib rapture, here it is:

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[Ahwatukee]

After studying long and hard I put together a list of bible verses that conclusively PROVE the pre-trib rapture, here it is:

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It is very sad indeed to see the number of people who count the Lord's punishment on our behalf as having no value. Instead of looking for the blessed hope, the imminent appearing of our Lord to gather us, people instead are anticipating to go through his wrath.

When we come to Christ, we are credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Yet we have those who believe that God is still going to put us through his wrath.

Think about this: If the gathering of the church was to take place at the same time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, everyone who is in Christ would be changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and all of those who are wicked are killed, then there would be no one left in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ.

I thank God, along with others, that God's word says that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that the Lord will come back to receive us prior to His wrath being poured out.