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M
Right. I see what you're trying to say. I hadn't viewed it as the "saints" literally touching down on earth. I'm seeing more of a picture of the believers airborne on these white horses which Re. 19 describes us riding out of heaven on. Minor point of disagreement. In fact, I'm not even sure I disagree with your assertion that the believers will actually touch down on earth. Either way.
Not sure why you're emphasizing Jesus' location. We're talking about the where and when of the believers in relation to this reported "first resurrection". Anyway...
There is actually a LOT of jumbling of the sequences ALL OVER the Book of Revelation. Hang on to your hat.
I'm going by what Jesus described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse -- Peter, James, John and Andrew. And as I have repeated many times -- I assume those disciples heeded Jesus words to them for the rest of their lives. Why wouldn't they? If you pulled aside Peter, 15 or 20 years afterwards and asked him "do you still heed Jesus' words to you from the Olivet Discourse?".
Peter: "Yes. Why wouldn't I heed His words to live with an expectation of the abomination, the great trib, followed by the glorious 'gathering'? Who could conceivably come along with words that contradict Jesus??".
And so...you claim there is "no meeting the Lord in the air". How so? Jesus says exactly the opposite: At the time of the cosmic signs which are described in the Olivet Discourse and also in Joel and Rev. 6, the Lord gathers the saints into the air...and then will commence the wrath of God, the day of the Lord:
Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
Rev. 6:12, 16 -- "when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood...and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from...the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come..."
Not sure why you're emphasizing Jesus' location. We're talking about the where and when of the believers in relation to this reported "first resurrection". Anyway...
There is actually a LOT of jumbling of the sequences ALL OVER the Book of Revelation. Hang on to your hat.
I'm going by what Jesus described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse -- Peter, James, John and Andrew. And as I have repeated many times -- I assume those disciples heeded Jesus words to them for the rest of their lives. Why wouldn't they? If you pulled aside Peter, 15 or 20 years afterwards and asked him "do you still heed Jesus' words to you from the Olivet Discourse?".
Peter: "Yes. Why wouldn't I heed His words to live with an expectation of the abomination, the great trib, followed by the glorious 'gathering'? Who could conceivably come along with words that contradict Jesus??".
And so...you claim there is "no meeting the Lord in the air". How so? Jesus says exactly the opposite: At the time of the cosmic signs which are described in the Olivet Discourse and also in Joel and Rev. 6, the Lord gathers the saints into the air...and then will commence the wrath of God, the day of the Lord:
Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
Rev. 6:12, 16 -- "when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood...and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from...the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come..."
M
You're claiming I'm making a "grammatical" error. Don't know where you think that is happening. In fact, you're the one trying to argue for a rigid sequencing here in Rev. 20...which only deepens your problem because the Bible is quite clear that the "dead in Christ" shall rise first...not seven years later after your alleged "PreTrib" rapture.
So we're back to Square One, it would seem. The "first resurrection" happens at the end or near the end of the 1260 days. And any "PreTrib" rapture can show no resurrection. Game over for PreTrib. How is it not? I'm not following your logic so far.
In the Bible, there is no resurrection being depicted prior to the 70th Week. You can't have a rapture without a resurrection.
Wait a minute. Where and when had you proven the existence of your PreTrib rapture to begin with?? You get to introduce it like a foregone conclusion? Take me to a passage in the Bible which teaches PreTrib.
I certainly have my post-"great trib" passage which Jesus taught directly to the leaders of the Christian movement -- Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Where is your passage which teaches a contradiction to Jesus' Olivet Discourse post-"great trib" rapture?
So we're back to Square One, it would seem. The "first resurrection" happens at the end or near the end of the 1260 days. And any "PreTrib" rapture can show no resurrection. Game over for PreTrib. How is it not? I'm not following your logic so far.
In the Bible, there is no resurrection being depicted prior to the 70th Week. You can't have a rapture without a resurrection.
Wait a minute. Where and when had you proven the existence of your PreTrib rapture to begin with?? You get to introduce it like a foregone conclusion? Take me to a passage in the Bible which teaches PreTrib.
I certainly have my post-"great trib" passage which Jesus taught directly to the leaders of the Christian movement -- Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Where is your passage which teaches a contradiction to Jesus' Olivet Discourse post-"great trib" rapture?
M
Exactly as Jesus describes it to the believers in the Olivet Discourse.
He tells them to look out for the Abomination of Desolation as the first specific event. By almost universal agreement, this takes place at the mid-point of the 70th Week of Daniel. So then, there will be 1260 days left at that point, until the absolute bitter end.
Jesus then says that after the Abomination event, the Great Tribulation will take place. But when believers see the great cosmic events (the sun and moon darkening, the stars appearing to fall from the sky, etc.) they will know their rescue is moments away. At that time, there will be the glorious "gathering" of the believers in which God sends the angels to "gather" (rapture) the elect from "the four winds and from one end of the heavens to the other"...straight into the arms of Jesus.
But Jesus ALSO points out that "no one will know the hour or the day" of His return. Only the Father in heaven. So...that tells us this "gathering" happens sometime well before the actual end of the 1260-day 2nd half of the 70th Week.
And indeed, if you look carefully at a couple other scriptures -- Joel 2:31 and Rev. 6:12,16,17 both echo Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21. Both those aforementioned scriptures clarify that the wrath of God begins in the moments following these great cosmic signs.
So then, the wrath of God commences and goes for the remainder of those 1260 days. Whether God's wrath lasts 150 days, 200, 300, 500...we don't know. No one knows the day or hour which will bring about the "gathering" and commence God's wrath.
He tells them to look out for the Abomination of Desolation as the first specific event. By almost universal agreement, this takes place at the mid-point of the 70th Week of Daniel. So then, there will be 1260 days left at that point, until the absolute bitter end.
Jesus then says that after the Abomination event, the Great Tribulation will take place. But when believers see the great cosmic events (the sun and moon darkening, the stars appearing to fall from the sky, etc.) they will know their rescue is moments away. At that time, there will be the glorious "gathering" of the believers in which God sends the angels to "gather" (rapture) the elect from "the four winds and from one end of the heavens to the other"...straight into the arms of Jesus.
But Jesus ALSO points out that "no one will know the hour or the day" of His return. Only the Father in heaven. So...that tells us this "gathering" happens sometime well before the actual end of the 1260-day 2nd half of the 70th Week.
And indeed, if you look carefully at a couple other scriptures -- Joel 2:31 and Rev. 6:12,16,17 both echo Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21. Both those aforementioned scriptures clarify that the wrath of God begins in the moments following these great cosmic signs.
So then, the wrath of God commences and goes for the remainder of those 1260 days. Whether God's wrath lasts 150 days, 200, 300, 500...we don't know. No one knows the day or hour which will bring about the "gathering" and commence God's wrath.
Pre Tribbers created another group of believers to explain away the great crowd seen in Revelation seven. This group are not we are told the Bride that was raptured before the tribulation but what they call ''Tribulation Saints'' a kind of second class Bride that missed out on the rapture. Apart from this extra group not being specifically mentioned anywhere the crowd around the throne who have come out of the tribulation sound suspiciously like the Bride that is supposed to have missed the tribulation completely. Furthermore we are told in Revelation that they will be before the throne of God and serve him day and night within his temple.
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Hi Tanakh,
Can you find anywhere where that group in white robes or anyone else for that matter that is referred to as the church after the end of chapter 3? Do you understand that, John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and then here in Rev.7 he is being asked who this group that no man can count is? John's response to the elders question is that he doesn't know who they are. Not to mention that the elder refers to this group as "[FONT="]These are they who have come out of the great tribulation," which you continue to say is not mentioned anywhere.
[/FONT]As I have proclaimed many times, the use of the word church throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and the absence of the word Saints in those same chapters, is significant. That coupled with the fact that from Rev.4 onward the situation switches, with the word saints being used and the word church being absent. This is not a coincidence, but are clues that God put in his word, which you and others are not taking into consideration.
There will be multiple groups on earth during the time of God's wrath: Israel who will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years, the male child/144,000 and the great tribulation saints who will be from every nation, tribe, people and language.
I thank God that I know the truth and do not have worry about God sending his church through his wrath before gathering us. If you understood what the coming wrath of God entails, the severity of it, you would not be claiming that God is going to send us through it.
Through faith in Christ, believers have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, God is not going to send his church through his wrath, for we are not appointed to suffer wrath. But you continue to ignore this as well.
You would also have to explain how the bride is seen as already being in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:6-8, 19:14). In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.
Can you find anywhere where that group in white robes or anyone else for that matter that is referred to as the church after the end of chapter 3? Do you understand that, John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and then here in Rev.7 he is being asked who this group that no man can count is? John's response to the elders question is that he doesn't know who they are. Not to mention that the elder refers to this group as "[FONT="]These are they who have come out of the great tribulation," which you continue to say is not mentioned anywhere.
[/FONT]As I have proclaimed many times, the use of the word church throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and the absence of the word Saints in those same chapters, is significant. That coupled with the fact that from Rev.4 onward the situation switches, with the word saints being used and the word church being absent. This is not a coincidence, but are clues that God put in his word, which you and others are not taking into consideration.
There will be multiple groups on earth during the time of God's wrath: Israel who will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years, the male child/144,000 and the great tribulation saints who will be from every nation, tribe, people and language.
I thank God that I know the truth and do not have worry about God sending his church through his wrath before gathering us. If you understood what the coming wrath of God entails, the severity of it, you would not be claiming that God is going to send us through it.
Through faith in Christ, believers have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, God is not going to send his church through his wrath, for we are not appointed to suffer wrath. But you continue to ignore this as well.
You would also have to explain how the bride is seen as already being in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:6-8, 19:14). In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.
thank you MattTooFor for the above. I see you started with the Olivet Discourse. It is a good place to begin. Do mind if we go over the Matthew version (is the most complete of the three), section by section. If we can leave out Mark (essentially the same) it will save a little time. Luke on the other hand is a little different in his writings of how show what is happening.
The biggest problem is how to interpret the verses. I recommend the literal mixed with all the symbols and parts of speech as needed.
What say you?
The biggest problem is how to interpret the verses. I recommend the literal mixed with all the symbols and parts of speech as needed.
What say you?
Our Father will not leave wandering souls without hope during any tribulation. Just as He humbled Himself to save the likes of me, He will leave people here with understanding to help in the guiding to Jesus Christ of many.
Daniel teaches us that the holy people will be defeated, and dthere will be some with understanding to help may others.
Again Martha said to Jesus that she knew her brother, Lazrus, would be raised on THE LAST DAY in the resurrection.
I certainly would not want to be an unsaved during the Tribulation, therefore I believe in doing unto others I would like to be here, Lord permitting, be it His will, to help out.....wouldn-t you+
Daniel teaches us that the holy people will be defeated, and dthere will be some with understanding to help may others.
Again Martha said to Jesus that she knew her brother, Lazrus, would be raised on THE LAST DAY in the resurrection.
I certainly would not want to be an unsaved during the Tribulation, therefore I believe in doing unto others I would like to be here, Lord permitting, be it His will, to help out.....wouldn-t you+
OK first lets see about the wrath of God. When does it start? At the seventh Trumpet. When s the Rapture and second coming? At the seventh trumpet
How can the Bride be in Heaven receiving white and clean robes and going from Heaven on horses? Because a huge number that make up the Bride are already dead and return with him for their resurrection bodies. Paul when talking of the rapture says that the dead in Christ rise first. He also said that he couldnt decide which was better to remain here or be with the Lord. I'm fairly sure he isn't still here so I assume that he is with him in heaven along with every other righteous dead person. The only alternative is belief in Soul Sleep like the SDA and JWs.
However unpleasant it may be it remains that the believers in Christ are going to go through the tribulation. John sees those Martyred for theirwitness to Christ under the alter in chapter six. He is shown a great crowd that no one can count
in chapter 7 dressed in white robes coming out of the tribulation. these are the fellow servants tha those under the altar are told about. They are dead and join all those who are resurrected at the second coming. Paul tells us that we who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air but only after the dead are raised first. I should also mention that he never says a word about going off to heaven for seven years only that we will forever be with the Lord.
Regarding the Church/Saint issue. Throughout the NT letters believers are called Saints. As most of the letters are sent to Churches I think it is fairly obvious that the saints mentioned in them belong to a Church. This big issue about the word Church only being in the letters to the seven Churches and Saint being in the Seven letters can be understood by the fact the letters were sent to seven real churches to give praise and warnings to those only The rest of revelation is meant to have a universal application. In Rev 19 it says that the Lambs wife hasmade herself ready and is arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of saints Who is the Lambs Wife? Answer - The Bride Who is Raptured? answer - The Bride of Christ which is his church made up of righteous saints so just because the word church is not used it doesnt mean the church isnt there in the tribulation because the description of the Saints coming out of the tribulation is identical with the Bride.
How can the Bride be in Heaven receiving white and clean robes and going from Heaven on horses? Because a huge number that make up the Bride are already dead and return with him for their resurrection bodies. Paul when talking of the rapture says that the dead in Christ rise first. He also said that he couldnt decide which was better to remain here or be with the Lord. I'm fairly sure he isn't still here so I assume that he is with him in heaven along with every other righteous dead person. The only alternative is belief in Soul Sleep like the SDA and JWs.
However unpleasant it may be it remains that the believers in Christ are going to go through the tribulation. John sees those Martyred for theirwitness to Christ under the alter in chapter six. He is shown a great crowd that no one can count
in chapter 7 dressed in white robes coming out of the tribulation. these are the fellow servants tha those under the altar are told about. They are dead and join all those who are resurrected at the second coming. Paul tells us that we who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air but only after the dead are raised first. I should also mention that he never says a word about going off to heaven for seven years only that we will forever be with the Lord.
Regarding the Church/Saint issue. Throughout the NT letters believers are called Saints. As most of the letters are sent to Churches I think it is fairly obvious that the saints mentioned in them belong to a Church. This big issue about the word Church only being in the letters to the seven Churches and Saint being in the Seven letters can be understood by the fact the letters were sent to seven real churches to give praise and warnings to those only The rest of revelation is meant to have a universal application. In Rev 19 it says that the Lambs wife hasmade herself ready and is arrayed in fine white linen which is the righteousness of saints Who is the Lambs Wife? Answer - The Bride Who is Raptured? answer - The Bride of Christ which is his church made up of righteous saints so just because the word church is not used it doesnt mean the church isnt there in the tribulation because the description of the Saints coming out of the tribulation is identical with the Bride.
Jesus Christ is the First born from the dead....... No, it was not Lazarus either.
Perhaps if you meditate on this> Jesus Chrisst is the resurrection, the Alpha *Alef( and the Omega *Tav.(
If that does not help, keep in mind kGod will manifest Himself in any manner He sees fit, although He is One.
On that think in terms of His many titles, and then think in terms of His true name which is unknown until the fulfillment of the prophesy of Zephaniah that God will turn all to a pure tongue facilitating all to call upon Him with one name, with one accord...
Perhaps if you meditate on this> Jesus Chrisst is the resurrection, the Alpha *Alef( and the Omega *Tav.(
If that does not help, keep in mind kGod will manifest Himself in any manner He sees fit, although He is One.
On that think in terms of His many titles, and then think in terms of His true name which is unknown until the fulfillment of the prophesy of Zephaniah that God will turn all to a pure tongue facilitating all to call upon Him with one name, with one accord...
