Not By Works

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

Sirk said:

You know...wisdom is justified of her children....funny thing...the Pharisees mouthed, condemned, rejected and maligned those who taught grace, mercy and a faith based salvation void of works.....they also attributed motive, intent and exercised a self righteous judgmental attitude against those who believed in a faith based salvation through grace and mercy........amazing how they never change and still do the same thing.......!

mailmandan · Mar 27, 2017

DiscipleDave said:

You are constantly condemning "this generation" and exalting yourself as sinless, 100% of the time in the "present tense" (1 John 1:8). The Bible clearly states that we are saved through believing in Him (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 4:5 etc..). Yet you say believing is not enough. Please describe what YOU believe it means to "believe in Him" in order to become saved.

We call upon the Lord in faith when we become saved. It's not an addition requirement to accomplish after we have been saved through faith. Through flawed hermeneutics, you are teaching with salvation by works below.

The same one's who endure to the end are the same one's who have been saved through faith. Saving faith in Christ endures and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Your true colors are showing more and more now. Works salvationist. This explains a lot! He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are saved through faith, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9). Your true colors have now fully surfaced. You are a works salvationist.

This explains a lot!

No, you ignore the context of Mark 16:16 and a multitude of verses that make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" - (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39: 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith in Christ alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - *James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Jesus is the door and we enter in through FAITH. Not by works and not by delusional, sinless performance.

We enter in through believing in Him, so believing is enough because the object of our belief in receiving salvation is "Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption." Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. You have really perverted the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

hmm... Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that help get us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.

False. Confession is not a work for salvation, but an expression of faith. Now what about someone who is moot and cannot speak? How can they confess with their "mouth?" Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Also, if we are not saved until we are water baptized, according to your misinterpretation of Mark 16:16, then how can confession be made unto salvation when it precedes water baptism? Many verses that clearly state we are saved through faith would be a lie if additional requirements which follow faith must be accomplished before we are saved.

Yet another misconception on your part. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). That is the main point. Not work for your salvation by keeping in memory what he told us.

FALSE! You have been unmasked. Faith that saves TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION, not to be confused with an empty profession of faith that produces no works and demonstrates that it's dead. This is what James means by faith only, which is not genuine faith in the first place. Those who believe they are saved by works and that they live a sinless life 100% of the time are truly suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness.

Roughsoul1991 · Mar 27, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Obviously I do not know the hearts of the ones who mock or deny discipleship as part of having faith. I could not rightly say what the point is of no return. I know the Lord can turn those who do not seek him over to a reprobate mind, a mind blind to truth. But we have confused and we have rebellion. We have people shouting their love for God but in the mind worshiping the idols of certain addictions. Sins that are engrained into our old self do not easily or subconsciously go away. Sometimes the sin may be so engrained the thought of giving it up is completely depressing. Eample a greed of money and reliance on self security instead of God security. Anything above God is not the rightly place of a earthly symbol. Sacrifice is hard and what God lays in our hearts to give up is ever truly easy. To the point as some want to follow but cant as in the rich young ruler. The way I like to live is 1 God 2 family 3 school/work.

I mean if the church continues down a path that eliminates the responsibility of a discipleship we will have many with a weak false sense of faith or a weak misunderstood faith of what God wants to do in us.

I just strive to love others as Christ loved me and in him I grow in patience and humility every day. After all usualy love given as an action can turn love into a feeling.

mj007 · Mar 27, 2017

Faith is spiritually based (suspension of mind)
Works are physically based (proactivity of mind)

Faith is a precursor to works
Works are an outcome of faith

While faith in Jesus is the door to salvation
Works are what keeps us on the right side of the door

If I could give a small example, as I like to look at things from a different angle;

Maybe someone has a drug problem. They want to get out of that, and they turn to Christ to try and find (physical) salvation (from their problem) [preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss]. They take the step of faith in Jesus, going through that door. Now say that was it, they did nothing else, nothing new. Why did they turn to drugs in the first place? If nothing has changed except for finding a way out through the door, what is to stop them going back through the door? And many people do when they are trying to overcome a problem.

But if that person goes through that door, fully equipped with the (spiritual) salvation of faith in Jesus [deliverance from sin and its consequences], then they might find they want to change something. They may start going to church, or they may try to take up a hobby, maybe even they will try helping others with problems themselves, they may choose to look at the way they love themselves or others, and maybe change their turbulent emotions which lead into drugs in the first place. Works. To me, when works come from the purest place of faith through the way the life and the truth of Jesus, then it is more likely that a person will gain strength in that faith and therefore their works. Not to place a dependency on works, but really, if we are not being proactive, then what are we doing except waiting for God to do something, rather than meeting God half way?

If I speak real world terms, does it make sense that say a drug addict, is 'saved' from their problem and all that it may bring and the sin it might incur, by taking a leap of 'faith' rather than being lured into temptation, and enforce that faith by being proactive in their 'works'?

I think people have different opinions on what being saved is. And there is nothing wrong with that. We are all different. We all have our own translations, or ways of perceiving it.

But if our works are in correcting others or telling them where they go wrong, rather than emphasising the good, are these types of works really coming from faith in Jesus, or faith in oneself? As for the drug addict, the initial faith was physical, a faith in himself, but ultimately it was his spiritual faith in Jesus that saved him. Someone who does works by faith in himself alone, will be climbing out of one pit and into another. They may succeed in overcoming certain things, but have they overcome their lack of spiritual understanding?

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

mj007 said:

Faith is spiritually based (suspension of mind)
Works are physically based (proactivity of mind)

Faith is a precursor to works
Works are an outcome of faith

While faith in Jesus is the door to salvation
Works are what keeps us on the right side of the door

If I could give a small example, as I like to look at things from a different angle;

Maybe someone has a drug problem. They want to get out of that, and they turn to Christ to try and find (physical) salvation (from their problem) [preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss]. They take the step of faith in Jesus, going through that door. Now say that was it, they did nothing else, nothing new. Why did they turn to drugs in the first place? If nothing has changed except for finding a way out through the door, what is to stop them going back through the door? And many people do when they are trying to overcome a problem.

But if that person goes through that door, fully equipped with the (spiritual) salvation of faith in Jesus [deliverance from sin and its consequences], then they might find they want to change something. They may start going to church, or they may try to take up a hobby, maybe even they will try helping others with problems themselves, they may choose to look at the way they love themselves or others, and maybe change their turbulent emotions which lead into drugs in the first place. Works. To me, when works come from the purest place of faith through the way the life and the truth of Jesus, then it is more likely that a person will gain strength in that faith and therefore their works. Not to place a dependency on works, but really, if we are not being proactive, then what are we doing except waiting for God to do something, rather than meeting God half way?

If I speak real world terms, does it make sense that say a drug addict, is 'saved' from their problem and all that it may bring and the sin it might incur, by taking a leap of 'faith' rather than being lured into temptation, and enforce that faith by being proactive in their 'works'?

I think people have different opinions on what being saved is. And there is nothing wrong with that. We are all different. We all have our own translations, or ways of perceiving it.

But if our works are in correcting others or telling them where they go wrong, rather than emphasising the good, are these types of works really coming from faith in Jesus, or faith in oneself? As for the drug addict, the initial faith was physical, a faith in himself, but ultimately it was his spiritual faith in Jesus that saved him. Someone who does works by faith in himself alone, will be climbing out of one pit and into another. They may succeed in overcoming certain things, but have they overcome their lack of spiritual understanding?

Galatians 1 and 3....are you so foolish having begun in the spirit are you now made complete by the flesh (works)

Without a doubt the works are the result of the faith.....<----RESULT OF....

We cannot chunk the truth of Romans, Titus, Ephesians etc.....Jesus was clear...belief = eternal life and a spiritual birth of INCORRUPTABLE SEED.....

WORKS come after a period of growth and maturity and even 1 (ONE) apple proves it is an apple tree......

ONE cannot produce anything unless they are already BORN and have had growth and MATURITY....even creation testifies to this.........

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved US<----PAST TENSE and the bible is clear....salvation is eternal....because the life given IS ETERNAL and if it could be lost, the words eternal and or everlasting would not be used.

mj007 · Mar 27, 2017

The whole sinless perfection analogy for example, is only used as a way to defile others. [damage the purity or appearance of; mar or spoil:]

I don't think ANY person here on this thread believes in sinless perfection, or believes they are without sin, or that they can be 100% without sin.

I believe that when we walk with spirit at those times in our life, that we are not sinning at those points, but this I'm sure is quite rare. None of us are saints. However, none of us should try to put each other down. We could all be saints, if we would only encourage each other to walk with spirit rather than claw at each others flesh and say look, this is flesh I tore from you.

Please try and think about that. Maybe you will see each other in a different light, rather than continue to make exaggerated assumptions on each other. Or to dissect each others comments as if you are some great teacher of the law. We are all teachers and pupils of each other, even if we don't agree.

mj007 · Mar 27, 2017

So are you saying we are saved since birth? Or that we are saved when we are born again? Past tense would surely mean before we are born?

dcontroversal said:

Galatians 1 and 3....are you so foolish having begun in the spirit are you now made complete by the flesh (works)

Without a doubt the works are the result of the faith.....<----RESULT OF....

We cannot chunk the truth of Romans, Titus, Ephesians etc.....Jesus was clear...belief = eternal life and a spiritual birth of INCORRUPTABLE SEED.....

WORKS come after a period of growth and maturity and even 1 (ONE) apple proves it is an apple tree......

ONE cannot produce anything unless they are already BORN and have had growth and MATURITY....even creation testifies to this.........

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved US<----PAST TENSE and the bible is clear....salvation is eternal....because the life given IS ETERNAL and if it could be lost, the words eternal and or everlasting would not be used.

Sirk · Mar 27, 2017

A little red meat:

What if Noah quit building the ark half way thru...or 3/4's thru....or 15/16ths thru? Would it have been sea worthy?

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

mj007 said:

A. We are saved the moment we exercise belief into the finished work of Christ and BORN AGAIN of the SPIRIT
B. That spiritual birth is of INCORRUPTABLE seed and beyond the ability to be corrupted
C. That spiritual birth results in one being justified, sanctified (positionally) in Christ and SEALED with Holy Spirit
D. The SPIRITUAL life given is eternal, everlasting
E. Jesus will finish what he started and will lose nothing but raise it up the last day

ALL based upon the foreknowledge of God and the fact that he determined before the casting down of the world that ALL who come to him thru Christ will be received and accepted because the righteousness of Christ is applied UNTO all who believe. God was clear...when he sees the blood he passes over in judgment....the blood of Christ is applied eternally to one who truly exercises saving faith.......

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

Sirk said:

Good thing Noah BELIEVED God and had genuine faith........!

Sirk · Mar 27, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Ha! You know I love you man! If Noah took a vacation and went to the bahamas for 14 days and then the rains came and he didn't get the tar put on in a crucial area, would the ark have stayed afloat?

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

Sirk said:

Obviously not....but...

a. Physical preservation is not spiritual salvation
b. It was pitched within and without
c. God shut the door
d. God already knew that NOAH would exercise faith and complete the task

Sirk · Mar 27, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I'll bet he got drunk a couple of times.

dcontroversal · Mar 27, 2017

Sirk said:

Probably....he just witnessed the complete destruction of everything on the planet.....I have always said we should have cut him some slack on that one......a real test of faith for sure....

wsblind · Mar 28, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

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Seohce · Mar 28, 2017

dcontroversal said:

FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION(rom 10:17,eph 1:13)

“HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? AND HOW CAN THEY PREACH UNLESS THEY ARE SENT?(rom 10:14-15)

GOD SPOKE THROUGH HIS SON JESUS WHOM HE SENT TO PREACH/TEACH THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION FOR BEING THE FIRST APOSTLE(heb 1:1 & 3:1).HE LATER ON SENT THE TWELVE(mark 3:14), THEN HIS DISCIPLES(mat 28:19-20)

THOSE WHO ARE SENT AND BEING SENT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST ARE PARTS OF HIS BODY(1cor 12:28,eph 4:11-13) WHOM HE WILL SAVE.(eph 5:23)

THEY ARE GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS(1cor 3:19) AND HIS (OBEDIENT) GOOD & FAITHFUL SERVANTS(mat 25:21)

IF THEY WILL NOT DO GOOD WORKS OR PRODUCE FRUIT, THEY WILL BE EXPELLED FROM THE BODY(1 cor 5:6-13, mat 5:29-30) OR CUT OFF FROM THE VINE(rom 11:22)

Matthew 21:43-44 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will PRODUCE ITS FRUITS. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Romans 9:15-16,18 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 11:18,20-23 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Granted. But they were broken off because of UNBELIEF, and you stand by FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU either. CONSIDER therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Luke 17:7-10 “Suppose one of you had a SERVANT plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘COME ALONG NOW SIT DOWN & EAT’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, GET YOURSELF READY and wait on me while I eat and drink; AFTER that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘WE ARE UNWORTHY SERVANTS; we have only done our duty.’”
OUR LORD JESUS LEARNED OBEDIENCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED.(heb 5:8) OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH LEADS TO HOLINESS & THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE (rom 6:16,19,22)

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one WILL FALL by following their example of DISOBEDIENCE.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. ALWAYS GIVE YOURSELVES FULLY TO THE WORK OF THE LORD, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Ephesians 4:12-13,16 to prepare God’s people for WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the BODY OF CHRIST may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become MATURE, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in LOVE, as each part DOES ITS WORK..

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as SERVANTS OF GOD.

PeterJens · Mar 28, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

If a person was called to climb Everest, there is equipment, training, team work,
a route that all needs to be worked out.

The measure of perfection is everything comes together to reach the goal.

Now to a legalistic mindset, unless you follow the rules, you will fail.
To a climber it is getting there in a safe way without casualties that matters,
by reducing risk and increasing efficiency. The rules matter but they are trained
into one through hard experience of practice climbs. It is literally a given.

So why is it the same crowd keep on talking about morality rules as if this is
the Kingdom of heaven, and failure is always the outcome. You would think they
grew up in the seat of mockers, learnt their trade by watching people try and fail,
and take their example from this failure to condemn anyone walking the way that
it is all a lie. One must ignore these untrained, uncommited people who claim
authority but deny its power.

mailmandan · Mar 28, 2017

mj007 said:

DiscipleDave believes in sinless perfection and that he can be 100% without sin and presently lives a life that is 100% without sin - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146196-helmet-hope-salvation-9.html

gb9 · Mar 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

and peterjens refuses to recognize the Biblical definition of sin, which is missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. I have pointed this out to him multiple times, but he blows it off.

it is sad, but in-Biblical beliefs like this make what they say invalid , though they both have a zeal for God, which is great, but truth should accompany that zeal.

PeterJens · Mar 28, 2017

gb9 said:

gb9 - so you believe I am blowing off knowing to do good and not doing so.

I am not blowing this off. It is sin if you know your brother is in need and you could
help them but you choose not to, that is sin.

So please demonstrate to me how this is me rejecting the word of God?
I am disturbed that you feel the message of love and acceptance through the cross
is so heinous you feel duty bound to share.

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