Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?

[valiant]

that would be between me and the Most High.

No it is something that the people of God has to consider. God has left us to judge. And while none of us are infallibly guided, your position is unscriptural we judge accordingly

 

[FreeNChrist]

Brother it's in the context of His will.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Yes, Scripture is clear, believe and you will receive. Not receive and then you will believe.

 

[rstrats]

sparkman,
re: "Jesus loved the apostle John in a different manner than he loved the other disciples.

What scripture says that?

 

[Adstar]

He did the same with Moses, When he told Moses he would destroy the people and start over with Moses, And Moses spoke for the people. and claimed Gods promise. And God again relented..

He knows what is going to happen He does it for our benefit..

He did it with Abraham when he told Him to go sacrafice his son.. Of course God was doing it to exercise the Faith of Abraham..

 

[John146]

Interesting how you left out verse 11, which sets the context. "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,"

Paul's talking to already saved people who are in Christ. How do you get in Christ? Believe upon the gospel of Christ. Once in Christ your destination is set. Those who are in Christ are not predestined for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. This is our final destination. It hasn't happened yet. It's a future thing. Predestination is a beautiful promise for the believer. Predestination has nothing to do with God electing someone to be in Christ. Rather, it is God elected those who are in Christ to be conformed to Christ. This is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[sparkman]

my position is people should b free to follow Jesus how the spirit leads them, not be forced against their will to believe what a council tells them of fear of being burned alive.
if a group of murderers and destroyers wants to label me a heretic i am ok with it as i want nothing to do with those fruits.

There have been times when those who were "anathema" were killed, particularly by the Roman Catholics, but the Roman Catholic church did not have that type of power as a bishopric of Rome in the early years.

To be declared "anathema" meant being labeled as someone that Christians should not fellowship with, due to their heretical views, and the possibility of being contaminated by their false teachings. I have no issue with marking certain individuals in that manner..to clearly distinguish that they are stepping outside of the boundaries of Christianity. Denying the Trinity is one of those issues. Besides the doctrine of the Trinity itself, non-Trinitarians typically hold other heretical views. As an example, many Oneness Pentecostals teach that you 1) must speak in tongues to be assured you are saved 2) must be baptized in the name of Jesus only and 3) believe in baptismal regeneration. In essence they end up separating themselves from the body of Christ simply by their truth claims which exclude other believers.

I belonged to such a cult for over a decade..who similarly declared themselves to be the "true faith".

By the way, I find it hilarious how cultic individuals view themselves as being the poor persecuted group, whereas they constantly engage in condemning Christianity because Christianity teaches against their position. The alleged "poor persecuted group" actually engages in rock-throwing and declares Christianity to be the ones with the problem.

I found it liberating to give up the paranoid mentality that the cult caused me to have toward Christians. And after I associated with real Christians, I realized that the lies the cult told me about them (that they were ignorant and unsaved) were just that..lies.

So, keep painting yourself as the "valiant defender of the truth"...that's usually how heretics like anti-Trinitarians view themselves.

 

[sparkman]

sparkman,
re: "Jesus loved the apostle John in a different manner than he loved the other disciples.

What scripture says that?

Scripture calls John the "disciple that Jesus loved" six times in the gospel of John. This implies a distinct fondness that Jesus had toward John. We see this exhibited by the fact that John leaned upon Jesus' bosom during the Last Supper, and that John was entrusted with the care of Mary, the mother of Jesus, at the cross. I also don't think it's accidental that John spoke more about love as a focus of his messages than the other disciples.

 

[sparkman]

Paul's talking to already saved people who are in Christ. How do you get in Christ? Believe upon the gospel of Christ. Once in Christ your destination is set. Those who are in Christ are not predestined for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. This is our final destination. It hasn't happened yet. It's a future thing. Predestination is a beautiful promise for the believer. Predestination has nothing to do with God electing someone to be in Christ. Rather, it is God elected those who are in Christ to be conformed to Christ. This is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

Is God sovereign over salvation, or is man?

By the way, weren't you the guy who told me that God is not sovereign because the word "sovereign" is not mentioned in the KJV? If you are him, my response is that Scripture clearly teaches that God is King over all..what does King imply other than sovereignty? I'm not sure if you are the one but it seems from your profile that you are one of the KJV Only guys.

 

[rstrats]

sparkman,
re: "Scripture calls John the 'disciple that Jesus loved' six times in the gospel of John."
　
I'm not aware of any scripture that names anyone called John as "the disciple that Jesus loved". What do you have in mind?

 

[FreeNChrist]

sparkman,
re: "Scripture calls John the 'disciple that Jesus loved' six times in the gospel of John."
　
I'm not aware of any scripture that names anyone called John as "the disciple that Jesus loved". What do you have in mind?

It was how the Apostle John referred to himself.

 

[Grace777x70]

It was how the Apostle John referred to himself.

Amen....The statement - "the disciple who Jesus loved" only occurs in John's own gospel. And it was John who knew and believed the love that Jesus had for him and he writes to believers to do the same thing.

1 John 4:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

 

[wsblind]

Interesting how you left out verse 11, which sets the context. "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,"

We are not predestined for salvation. Predestination is a predesigned plan for believers ONLY. His plan for the salvation of man was pre-designed before the foundation of the earth and it contains inheritance,predestination and election AFTER we believe.

Predestined~~His predesigned plan. It is not predestination to salvation or predestination to the LoF.

His purpose~~His Shewbread in the temple. It is not Sovereignly choosing some for hell and some for salvation.

His Will~~that who ever looks and believes upon His shewbread(Jesus Christ/his Purpose) in the temple shall be saved.

Our Inheritance(not salvation) Was predestined to believers only before the foundation of the world, according to His Purpose(The bread of life/Jesus Christ) according to His will( That who ever looks and believes upon the purpose/shewbread/bread of life/Jesus Christ) shall be saved.

1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.

New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[valiant]

We are not predestined for salvation. Predestination is a predesigned plan for believers ONLY. His plan for the salvation of man was pre-designed before the foundation of the earth and it contains inheritance,predestination and election AFTER we believe.

But we were chosen for it before the world began,

Predestined~~His predesigned plan. It is not predestination to salvation or predestination to the LoF.

We were not predestined to salvation from the guilt of sin, for that we were chosen. But having been chosen we were predestined to be saved from the power and pollution of sin.

His purpose~~His Shewbread in the temple. It is not Sovereignly choosing some for hell and some for salvation.

We choose Hell for ourselves. But we are sovereignly chosen to be saved from it.

His Will~~that who ever looks upon His shewbread(Jesus Christ/his Purpose) in the temple shall be saved.

I will not argue about interpretations of the Tabernacle which are merely of man's devising.

Our Inheritance(not salvation) Was predestined to believers only before the foundation of the world, according to His Purpose

so we were predestined to receive our inheritance by His choice.

(The bread of life/Jesus Christ) according to His will( That who ever looks upon the purpose/shewbread/bread of life/Jesus Christ) shall be saved.

your interpretation only.

1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.

New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

as you wish

 

[wsblind]

But we were chosen for it before the world began,



We were not predestined to salvation from the guilt of sin, for that we were chosen. But having been chosen we were predestined to be saved from the power and pollution of sin.



We choose Hell for ourselves. But we are sovereignly chosen to be saved from it.



I will not argue about interpretations of the Tabernacle which are merely of man's devising.



so we were predestined to receive our inheritance by His choice.



your interpretation only.



as you wish

Use some scripture to back up your claims. Show the verse that YOU were chosen for SALVATION before the world began.

 

[John146]

Is God sovereign over salvation, or is man?

By the way, weren't you the guy who told me that God is not sovereign because the word "sovereign" is not mentioned in the KJV? If you are him, my response is that Scripture clearly teaches that God is King over all..what does King imply other than sovereignty? I'm not sure if you are the one but it seems from your profile that you are one of the KJV Only guys.

Define sovereign? I said God is not sovereign the way Calvinists define sovereign. God is "sovereign" in that nothing escapes His knowledge and nothing occurs without His allowing it to occur. His grace allows man to get saved according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the way God has determined man's salvation. Man cannot will it any other way. If man wants to receive God's mercy, man must receive it based on the way God has set it up and that's through the Lord Jesus Christ. God's sovereignty does not elect some to be saved and not others. That's not biblical "sovereignty".

 

[John146]

But we were chosen for it before the world began,

Who was chosen for it? Those who would be found in Him. In who? In Christ. Scripture gives us the way in Christ...believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ for sins. Once your in Christ, the spiritual blessings that were determined before the foundation of the world will be yours including the future adoption, the redemption of our bodies. That's being conformed to the image of Christ. It's our destination. It's a future event for those who are in Christ. Scripture never declares that man is predestined to be in Christ. Ever.

 

[rstrats]

FreeNChrist,
re: "It was how the Apostle John referred to himself."

How do you know that? Where does the writer of John identify himself as "the disciple that Jesus loved"?

 

[wsblind]

Define sovereign? I said God is not sovereign the way Calvinists define sovereign. God is "sovereign" in that nothing escapes His knowledge and nothing occurs without His allowing it to occur. His grace allows man to get saved according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the way God has determined man's salvation. Man cannot will it any other way. If man wants to receive God's mercy, man must receive it based on the way God has set it up and that's through the Lord Jesus Christ. God's sovereignty does not elect some to be saved and not others. That's not biblical "sovereignty".

The simple and biblical answer is, God Is righteous and Just over salvation. His Sovereignty cannot impugn His Justice/Righteousness.

New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

And His equity in salvation is His Son. His Son is Publically lifted up for ALL to see and believe if they so choose.

 

[valiant]

Paul's talking to already saved people who are in Christ. How do you get in Christ? Believe upon the gospel of Christ. Once in Christ your destination is set. Those who are in Christ are not predestined for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. This is our final destination. It hasn't happened yet. It's a future thing. Predestination is a beautiful promise for the believer. Predestination has nothing to do with God electing someone to be in Christ. Rather, it is God elected those who are in Christ to be conformed to Christ. This is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

But His choice of us before the foundation the world (before we had done good or evil) was what led to our predestination,

 

[valiant]

Who was chosen for it? Those who would be found in Him. In who? In Christ. Scripture gives us the way in Christ...believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ for sins. Once your in Christ, the spiritual blessings that were determined before the foundation of the world will be yours including the future adoption, the redemption of our bodies. That's being conformed to the image of Christ. It's our destination. It's a future event for those who are in Christ. Scripture never declares that man is predestined to be in Christ. Ever.

lol read THE whole passage without your rose tinted spectacles on. God may yet show you His truth.