Does God Foreknow People, or Events, or Both? Which does Romans 8:28-30 refer to?
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Paul's talking to already saved people who are in Christ. How do you get in Christ? Believe upon the gospel of Christ. Once in Christ your destination is set. Those who are in Christ are not predestined for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. This is our final destination. It hasn't happened yet. It's a future thing. Predestination is a beautiful promise for the believer. Predestination has nothing to do with God electing someone to be in Christ. Rather, it is God elected those who are in Christ to be conformed to Christ. This is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
There have been times when those who were "anathema" were killed, particularly by the Roman Catholics, but the Roman Catholic church did not have that type of power as a bishopric of Rome in the early years.
To be declared "anathema" meant being labeled as someone that Christians should not fellowship with, due to their heretical views, and the possibility of being contaminated by their false teachings. I have no issue with marking certain individuals in that manner..to clearly distinguish that they are stepping outside of the boundaries of Christianity. Denying the Trinity is one of those issues. Besides the doctrine of the Trinity itself, non-Trinitarians typically hold other heretical views. As an example, many Oneness Pentecostals teach that you 1) must speak in tongues to be assured you are saved 2) must be baptized in the name of Jesus only and 3) believe in baptismal regeneration. In essence they end up separating themselves from the body of Christ simply by their truth claims which exclude other believers.
I belonged to such a cult for over a decade..who similarly declared themselves to be the "true faith".
By the way, I find it hilarious how cultic individuals view themselves as being the poor persecuted group, whereas they constantly engage in condemning Christianity because Christianity teaches against their position. The alleged "poor persecuted group" actually engages in rock-throwing and declares Christianity to be the ones with the problem.
I found it liberating to give up the paranoid mentality that the cult caused me to have toward Christians. And after I associated with real Christians, I realized that the lies the cult told me about them (that they were ignorant and unsaved) were just that..lies.
So, keep painting yourself as the "valiant defender of the truth"...that's usually how heretics like anti-Trinitarians view themselves.
To be declared "anathema" meant being labeled as someone that Christians should not fellowship with, due to their heretical views, and the possibility of being contaminated by their false teachings. I have no issue with marking certain individuals in that manner..to clearly distinguish that they are stepping outside of the boundaries of Christianity. Denying the Trinity is one of those issues. Besides the doctrine of the Trinity itself, non-Trinitarians typically hold other heretical views. As an example, many Oneness Pentecostals teach that you 1) must speak in tongues to be assured you are saved 2) must be baptized in the name of Jesus only and 3) believe in baptismal regeneration. In essence they end up separating themselves from the body of Christ simply by their truth claims which exclude other believers.
I belonged to such a cult for over a decade..who similarly declared themselves to be the "true faith".
By the way, I find it hilarious how cultic individuals view themselves as being the poor persecuted group, whereas they constantly engage in condemning Christianity because Christianity teaches against their position. The alleged "poor persecuted group" actually engages in rock-throwing and declares Christianity to be the ones with the problem.
I found it liberating to give up the paranoid mentality that the cult caused me to have toward Christians. And after I associated with real Christians, I realized that the lies the cult told me about them (that they were ignorant and unsaved) were just that..lies.
So, keep painting yourself as the "valiant defender of the truth"...that's usually how heretics like anti-Trinitarians view themselves.
Scripture calls John the "disciple that Jesus loved" six times in the gospel of John. This implies a distinct fondness that Jesus had toward John. We see this exhibited by the fact that John leaned upon Jesus' bosom during the Last Supper, and that John was entrusted with the care of Mary, the mother of Jesus, at the cross. I also don't think it's accidental that John spoke more about love as a focus of his messages than the other disciples.
Is God sovereign over salvation, or is man?
By the way, weren't you the guy who told me that God is not sovereign because the word "sovereign" is not mentioned in the KJV? If you are him, my response is that Scripture clearly teaches that God is King over all..what does King imply other than sovereignty? I'm not sure if you are the one but it seems from your profile that you are one of the KJV Only guys.
Amen....The statement - "the disciple who Jesus loved" only occurs in John's own gospel. And it was John who knew and believed the love that Jesus had for him and he writes to believers to do the same thing.
1 John 4:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
W
We are not predestined for salvation. Predestination is a predesigned plan for believers ONLY. His plan for the salvation of man was pre-designed before the foundation of the earth and it contains inheritance,predestination and election AFTER we believe.
Predestined~~His predesigned plan. It is not predestination to salvation or predestination to the LoF.
His purpose~~His Shewbread in the temple. It is not Sovereignly choosing some for hell and some for salvation.
His Will~~that who ever looks and believes upon His shewbread(Jesus Christ/his Purpose) in the temple shall be saved.
Our Inheritance(not salvation) Was predestined to believers only before the foundation of the world, according to His Purpose(The bread of life/Jesus Christ) according to His will( That who ever looks and believes upon the purpose/shewbread/bread of life/Jesus Christ) shall be saved.
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Predestined~~His predesigned plan. It is not predestination to salvation or predestination to the LoF.
His purpose~~His Shewbread in the temple. It is not Sovereignly choosing some for hell and some for salvation.
His Will~~that who ever looks and believes upon His shewbread(Jesus Christ/his Purpose) in the temple shall be saved.
Our Inheritance(not salvation) Was predestined to believers only before the foundation of the world, according to His Purpose(The bread of life/Jesus Christ) according to His will( That who ever looks and believes upon the purpose/shewbread/bread of life/Jesus Christ) shall be saved.
1Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
New American Standard Bible
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
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But we were chosen for it before the world began,
We were not predestined to salvation from the guilt of sin, for that we were chosen. But having been chosen we were predestined to be saved from the power and pollution of sin.
We choose Hell for ourselves. But we are sovereignly chosen to be saved from it.
I will not argue about interpretations of the Tabernacle which are merely of man's devising.
so we were predestined to receive our inheritance by His choice.
your interpretation only.
as you wish
We were not predestined to salvation from the guilt of sin, for that we were chosen. But having been chosen we were predestined to be saved from the power and pollution of sin.
We choose Hell for ourselves. But we are sovereignly chosen to be saved from it.
I will not argue about interpretations of the Tabernacle which are merely of man's devising.
so we were predestined to receive our inheritance by His choice.
your interpretation only.
as you wish
Define sovereign? I said God is not sovereign the way Calvinists define sovereign. God is "sovereign" in that nothing escapes His knowledge and nothing occurs without His allowing it to occur. His grace allows man to get saved according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the way God has determined man's salvation. Man cannot will it any other way. If man wants to receive God's mercy, man must receive it based on the way God has set it up and that's through the Lord Jesus Christ. God's sovereignty does not elect some to be saved and not others. That's not biblical "sovereignty".
Who was chosen for it? Those who would be found in Him. In who? In Christ. Scripture gives us the way in Christ...believe upon the gospel of Jesus Christ for sins. Once your in Christ, the spiritual blessings that were determined before the foundation of the world will be yours including the future adoption, the redemption of our bodies. That's being conformed to the image of Christ. It's our destination. It's a future event for those who are in Christ. Scripture never declares that man is predestined to be in Christ. Ever.
W
The simple and biblical answer is, God Is righteous and Just over salvation. His Sovereignty cannot impugn His Justice/Righteousness.
New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
And His equity in salvation is His Son. His Son is Publically lifted up for ALL to see and believe if they so choose.
New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.
And His equity in salvation is His Son. His Son is Publically lifted up for ALL to see and believe if they so choose.