The Rapture explained in two minutes

[popeye]

Once again, you've got the wrong passage of Scripture. Matthew 24 is NOT describing the end of the seven years because THAT would mean He (Jesus) and everyone else in those days would know the EXACT day of His return.

And that can't be because Jesus specifically indicates "no one knows the day or hour". You're using the wrong passage of Scripture.

In any case, none of your arguments matter anyway...because Jesus told Peter, James and John the first event to look for was the Abomination of Desolation...NOT a mythical "PreTrib" rapture which doesn't have a single passage in the Bible.

So...even if for the sake of argument we concede to you the Matthew 24 passage is describing an event at the very end of the seven years and NOT an event some time before that...it matters not. PreTrib is already D.O.A. the very moment Jesus tells Peter, James and John they need to expect to enter into the events deep INSIDE the 70th Week.

Obviously, they believed Jesus. And I absolutely want to believe the same thing those disciples believed. It's the only correct view.

All mental conjecture.

Systematic theology is better.

"....none of your arguments matter..."

Pretrib is multifaceted,bible doctrine. We match your one non verse with what?....30 verses?

 

[popeye]

It is the 'pre-trib' folks who work diligently to remove the rapture from the Second Coming - into a separate 'event'.



He comes WITH the SOULS of His saints FOR the BODIES of His saints.

What do you think the rapture is all about?



Because they have been killed during the Great Tribulation - for not worshipping the beast.

That would only be if there was some compelling case or verses POINTING TO a post trib rapture.

Since no one has,and there are none,your assertion is doa

 

[popeye]

But anyway,why is there no mention of gentile Christians sealed against the locusts/scorpions ?
The 144k are Christians,and there was a need for an "extra forehead seal"

Further,the locust/scorpions are INSTRUCTED to not sting ONLY those sealed.

Hhhmmmmmmm,obviously there is no church ON EARTH during the GT.

 

[Bladerunner]

Here are some [ somewhat 'random' ] "noteworthy" past posts related to the current "conversation"...:
Quote Originally Posted by GaryA View Post
You have missed some very important facts:

~ The 70th week of Daniel is history.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. All 70 weeks "came and went" unbroken.

~ There is no 7-year treaty between an / any / some / the antichrist and Israel.

Daniel 9:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The word 'he' in this verse ( all three ) is referring to Christ, not an / any / some / the antichrist.

The phrase 'confirm the covenant' is referring to the confirming of an [ existing ] covenant, not the creating of a treaty.

This is referring to the crucifixion of Christ and the veil of the temple being rent in two.

This is referring to the destruction of the temple.

This is saying, in effect, that there will be no third temple --- the phrase 'until the consummation' essentially means, "until the end of all things" - and is pointing to the return of Christ ( Second Coming of Christ ).

This is talking about the post 70 A.D. aftermath.

GaryA...If the Highlited verse above was true, you are putting Jesus as DOING these things:

1. he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week . It was Jesus who told Daniels what to say here, But the Bible tells that Gabriel did it.

2. in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Jesus is going to do this according to you.


3. for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

Here is the definition used in the Bible for Abominations: disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: — abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

Here is the def for Desolate:.to devastate or to be destitute (who here = Israel)

Here is the DEF for consummation: complete destruction


and YOU are assigning these features to JESUS????????? REALLY!!!!!!!

 

[Bladerunner]

interesting idea,

imo, Jerusalem is still being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.

I urge you to scope things out before your mouth spits it out.

Jerusalem is not under GENTILE rule. It is Under Israeli RULE. Yes, Gentile live there but they are not in Charge.

The Temple mount is under Gentile rule (Jordan) at this time.

So all yoiur premonitions about the days sof being under Gentile rule are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[samuel23]

Hey Popeye: How do you deal with the fact that Jesus taught a post-trib rapture of the church in Matt 24 and Mark 13 and eluded to in Luke 21? Jesus said that after a time of tribulation he would return in the sky, with a trumpet, and angels, and gather the believers off the earth.

 

[popeye]

The way I have always interpreted it:

1) The dead-in-Christ are raised back to life.
2) All of the saved ( the 'previously-dead' and the 'still-remaining' ) are "changed" ( given their immortal bodies ) together.
3) All are "caught up" together in the clouds.

Otherwise:

1) The dead-in-Christ are raised back to life and are "changed" at the same time.
2) The still-remaining receive their immortal bodies.
3) All are "caught up" together.

We agree (I think)

 

[tanakh]

In order to understand Matthew 24 you need to read and understand Matthew 23 because when the Disciples asked Jesus ''when will these things be'' They were asking about the things Jesus spoke about when he launched a verbal attack on the scribes and Pharisees and told his Disciples that not one stone of the temple would be left on another. The warnings he gave them refer to what happened in 70Ad when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and around one million Jews in Judea perished. The term abomination of desolation was a Hebrew term meaning the destruction and desolation of a Holy place. In chapter 23 Jesus tells the Pharisees ''Behold I leave your house,(Temple), desolate. In Luke's version of this discussion instead of using the Abomination term he uses ''Jerusalem surrounded by armies'' It is thought that this was done because he was writing to Gentiles who were not familiar with the meaning of the Abomination terminology. It was both the Temple and the City that became a desolate abomination.

chapters 23 to 25 of Matthew form a continuous block of scripture relating to both the events of AD70 and a future time before the second coming. A lot of confusion about this is due to the failure to read and understand all three chapters as a whole. and to compare the same passages in Mark and Luke.

 

[Bladerunner]

In order to understand Matthew 24 you need to read and understand Matthew 23 because when the Disciples asked Jesus ''when will these things be'' They were asking about the things Jesus spoke about when he launched a verbal attack on the scribes and Pharisees and told his Disciples that not one stone of the temple would be left on another. The warnings he gave them refer to what happened in 70Ad when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and around one million Jews in Judea perished. The term abomination of desolation was a Hebrew term meaning the destruction and desolation of a Holy place. In chapter 23 Jesus tells the Pharisees ''Behold I leave your house,(Temple), desolate. In Luke's version of this discussion instead of using the Abomination term he uses ''Jerusalem surrounded by armies'' It is thought that this was done because he was writing to Gentiles who were not familiar with the meaning of the Abomination terminology. It was both the Temple and the City that became a desolate abomination.

chapters 23 to 25 of Matthew form a continuous block of scripture relating to both the events of AD70 and a future time before the second coming. A lot of confusion about this is due to the failure to read and understand all three chapters as a whole. and to compare the same passages in Mark and Luke.

Tanakh...I though better of you..... You are Jewish are you not? Matthew and Mark are about the same.... But Matthew and Luke are different. Matthew was a Levite (Jewish) and he was speaking to the Jews. Luke was a gentile and was speaking to the Gentiles of the time period.

If you take the first three verses of Matt 24:1-3, Jesus has come out of the Temple (from preaching to the masses) and is evidently walking toward the Mount of Olives (Mt. Olivet) which is across the Kidron Valley.

Matt 24:1-3 (emphasis Added)
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (He has left the building and wound up on Mt. Olivet across the Kidron Valley)

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Jesus tells them a prophecy that not one stone of the temple will be left unturned)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (They ask WHEN (timeline), WHAT (signs of thy 2nd coming) and as an extra the END of the WORLD)


Now it is apparent that the destruction of the building (temple) Jesus was talking above would take place in 70 AD. We know that from History.

In verses 4-5, Prior to Jesus telling the answers to His disciples questions, He warned everyone not to be deceived. He did this also in Mark and Luke's version. ".....Take heed that no man deceive you."

In verses 6-8... (emphasis Added)

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Here he is talking to them to hear and not be troubled. For they (these words of HIS) will come to pass (Happen) but it is not the end.)

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (Down to this part, Matthew and Luke are pretty much the same)

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (OOPS! what did he JUST SAY! "All these are the beginning" The Beginning,,The Beginning,,,,, of Sorrow)

Tanakh,,,, I ask you,,,do we agree down to this point on Matthews account?? if it is we can go on if you agree. I would really like to know why you are a preterist.

 

[Dan_473]

I urge you to scope things out before your mouth spits it out.

Jerusalem is not under GENTILE rule. It is Under Israeli RULE. Yes, Gentile live there but they are not in Charge.

The Temple mount is under Gentile rule (Jordan) at this time.

So all yoiur premonitions about the days sof being under Gentile rule are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well... not 'Gentile rule', 'trampled underfoot by the Gentiles'. imo, Muslim pilgrams to the Dome of the Rock and gentile tourists in general are trampling Jerusalem underfoot.

 

[Bladerunner]

well... not 'Gentile rule', 'trampled underfoot by the Gentiles'. imo, Muslim pilgrams to the Dome of the Rock and gentile tourists in general are trampling Jerusalem underfoot.

'trampled under foot' does mean gentile rule....The Bible does not take into account TOURIST.

The Dome of the Rock is sitting on the 'temple mount' and is under Jordanian (gentile) control. The city itself is under Israeli control.

 

[Bladerunner]

Just to brace up my last post, here are some synonyms for "trample under foot"

Synonyms for trample underfoot
verb defeat, overcome

crushstar
overthrowstar
quellstar
routstar
subduestar
subjugatestar
surmountstar
vanquishstar
beatstar
checkmatestar

circumventstar
clobberstar
controlstar
creamstar
discomfitstar
drubstar
foilstar
frustratestar
humblestar
lickstar

masterstar
outwitstar
overmasterstar
overpowerstar
overridestar
prevailstar
reducestar
succeedstar
throwstar
thwartstar

totalstar
trashstar
triumphstar
whipstar
worststar
zapstar
bring to kneesstar
get the better ofstar
shut downstar
wipe off map

 

[GaryA]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD] 457 B.C.[/TD]
[TD]The decree went forth to rebuild the city.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 445 B.C.[/TD]
[TD]The wall of the city is built in 52 days.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 405 B.C.[/TD]
[TD]The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 3 B.C.[/TD]
[TD]Christ is born in Bethlehem.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]( Remember that there is no year 0. )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 30 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 34 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth. ( Continued next row. )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 34 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]'Times of the Jews' ends; 'Times of the Gentiles' begins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 70 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Abomination Of Desolation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 70 A.D.[/TD]
[TD]Great Tribulation begins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Dark Ages[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 6:9 - "souls under the altar" )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]past - present - future[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 6:11 - "that should be killed as they were"; Includes next row. )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Christian Martyrs ( Revelation 20:4 - beheaded for not worshipping the beast; huge scale murder )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Great Tribulation ends - Two Witnesses begin their testimony[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 5 - bottomless pit opened[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Witnesses Killed by "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" ( Revelation 11:7 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Witnesses Raised ( Revelation 11:11 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Heaven / Temple Opened ( Matthew 24:30; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 15:5; Revelation 19:11 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]JESUS ( Matthew 24:30 / Mark 13:26 / Luke 21:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 14:14; Revelation 19:11-16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Trumpet 7 ( Matthew 24:31/ Mark 13:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 11:15 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Resurrection & Rapture ( Matthew 24:31 / Mark 13:27; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 14:16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Pre-Wrath ( Revelation 14:19; Revelation 15:6-8; Revelation 19:15-19 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Armageddon ( Isaiah 13:15-18; Zechariah 12:2,9-11; 14:1-2; Revelation 16:13-14,16 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Vial 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] future[/TD]
[TD]Marriage Supper ( Revelation 19:21 )[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The "cosmic signs" of Matthew 24:29 are literally part of the trumpet 'events' - which are literally brought about by the Two Witnesses.

 

[GaryA]

But anyway,why is there no mention of gentile Christians sealed against the locusts/scorpions ?
The 144k are Christians,and there was a need for an "extra forehead seal"

Further,the locust/scorpions are INSTRUCTED to not sting ONLY those sealed.

Hhhmmmmmmm,obviously there is no church ON EARTH during the GT.

On Earth during the GT. Killed by the end of the GT.

Scorpions come after GT is over.

All Trumpet events are after GT.

 

[GaryA]

GaryA...If the Highlited verse above was true, you are putting Jesus as DOING these things:

1. he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week . It was Jesus who told Daniels what to say here, But the Bible tells that Gabriel did it. { Jesus confirmed the covenant. }

2. in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Jesus is going to do this according to you. { Not going to --- already has... This happened when the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom. }

3. for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

Here is the definition used in the Bible for Abominations: disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: — abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

Here is the def for Desolate:.to devastate or to be destitute (who here = Israel)

Here is the DEF for consummation: complete destruction


and YOU are assigning these features to JESUS????????? REALLY!!!!!!!

The verse is not saying that 'he' committed any abomination. It is saying that - because of the abominations committed - 'he' would make 'it' ( the temple ) desolate.

 

[GaryA]

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (OOPS! what did he JUST SAY! "All these are the beginning" The Beginning,,The Beginning,,,,, of Sorrow)

OOPS! What did you just assume...?!?!

[ All these are ] the 'beginning' of 'sorrows' --- not the 'beginning' of anything else...

 

[GaryA]

Just to brace up my last post, here are some synonyms for "trample under foot"

Synonyms for trample underfoot
verb defeat, overcome

crushstar
overthrowstar
quellstar
routstar
subduestar
subjugatestar
surmountstar
vanquishstar
beatstar
checkmatestar

circumventstar
clobberstar
controlstar
creamstar
discomfitstar
drubstar
foilstar
frustratestar
humblestar
lickstar

masterstar
outwitstar
overmasterstar
overpowerstar
overridestar
prevailstar
reducestar
succeedstar
throwstar
thwartstar

totalstar
trashstar
triumphstar
whipstar
worststar
zapstar
bring to kneesstar
get the better ofstar
shut downstar
wipe off map

What is it with all of the stars...???

 

[Ahwatukee]

On Earth during the GT. Killed by the end of the GT.

Scorpions come after GT is over.

All Trumpet events are after GT.

The time period in which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place is what makes up the tribulation period. It is God's tribulation. His time of wrath. The scorpion/demons who are released at the 5th trumpet, takes place within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Daniel 9:27 divides that last seven year period into two 3 1/2 year periods with the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven being the divider.

Two witnesses = Prophesy for 1260 days (first 3 1/2 years) - Rev.11:3

The woman/Israel cared for out in the wilderness = 1260 days (last 3 1/2 years) - Rev.12:6,14

Beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints for 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) - Rev.13:5-7

The entire seven year period is the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Dan.9:24. It will begin with the first seal being opened, which is represented by the rider on the white horse, the antichrist. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all take place throughout that entire seven year period, not outside of it.

Jesus returns to the earth to end the age just after the 7th bowl is poured out

 

[GaryA]

The time period in which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place is what makes up the tribulation period. It is God's tribulation. His time of wrath. The scorpion/demons who are released at the 5th trumpet, takes place within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Daniel 9:27 divides that last seven year period into two 3 1/2 year periods with the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven being the divider.

Two witnesses = Prophesy for 1260 days (first 3 1/2 years) - Rev.11:3

The woman/Israel cared for out in the wilderness = 1260 days (last 3 1/2 years) - Rev.12:6,14

Beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints for 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) - Rev.13:5-7

The entire seven year period is the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Dan.9:24. It will begin with the first seal being opened, which is represented by the rider on the white horse, the antichrist. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all take place throughout that entire seven year period, not outside of it.

Jesus returns to the earth to end the age just after the 7th bowl is poured out

"Nope..."

 

[Ahwatukee]

"Nope..."

Wow GaryA! Just "Nope." No scripture to support anything.

I know what I am talking about. In your effort to support your position, you and others redefine God's wrath and/or relocate the timing of it. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will all take place within that last seven years, with the Lord returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out, as can be plainly deduced from the Lord's interjection after the 6th bowl has been poured out:

"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

The above is what the Lord interjects after the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, which demonstrates that by the time the 6th bowl has been poured out, he will still not have returned to the earth to end the age. That entire time period is established by Dan.9:27, which is that last seven years. And the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will all take place from the beginning through the ending of that last seven years. I proved my point further by pointing out that Revelation refers to that seven year period by mentioning the two 3 1/2 year periods.