Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[preacher4truth]

Here is a biblical example of believing, but not being converted.

Zane Hodges would say these are "in Heaven" even going as far as to say a child of God can be a child of Satan.

Joh 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

(Many, and TOO many would stop right here, rejoice, and claim them "saved" but read on)

Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

(Some here will throw in the false dichotomy of a believer and a disciple. Lewis Sperry Chafer came up with this heresy which is still taught at DTS. It is part and parcel to easy-believe-ism.)


Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

(obviously they are not free)


Joh 8:33 They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?"
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
Joh 8:35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.
Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."
You Are of Your Father the Devil
Joh 8:39 They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,
Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Joh 8:41 You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God."
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Nope, they're not saved. There was no repentance, there was no following Christ, there was no being freed from sin, there was no love for Christ, there was not going to be any abiding in His word, (abiding in His word, note 2 John 1:9), there was no hearing of His Word, and they're children of satan.

 

[dcontroversal]

Right, and a true believer is qualified by the NT Scriptures.

One may believe, but if the person does not repent, or, has not repented the person is not a genuine believer; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25; 2 Peter 3:9. This is called easy-believe-ism. It is rejected by Scripture; 2 Timothy 2:15.

One may say he believes, yet if he is not being transformed by the Gospel, a new creature, he is not a believer; Romans 12:1ff; 2 Corinthians 3:17ff, 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is held by those who believe there is no evidence of conversion, another fomr of easy-believe-ism and stems from the false teachings of FGT coming from Dallas Theological Seminary and Grace Evangelical Society.

One may say he believes, but if he lives and practices sin, he is deceived and is not a believer; 1 John; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19ff, Hebrews 12:14. Persons who support such in their sin, and claim them as saved no matter what are preaching antinomianism. This is what Christ dealt with in Matthew 7:21 ff, those who live lawlessly.

The bottom line? The tree is known by its fruit.

Yeah except there are a few holes in your theology.....IE...your hard fast rules have exceptions!

a. A tree takes maturity and growth before it produces
b. A genuine believer can have works of wood, hay and stubble <-not very faithful
c. Even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus proves the type of tree and will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....

 

[dcontroversal]

Drink cola it can save you.
Have a cup of coffee, it can revive parts of you no other drink can.

Come be friends with us, we are nice and friendly and can introduce you
to our nice eternal friends, it will be so cosy.

Another post that makes the ignorant grouping......!

 

[dcontroversal]

So our message is believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
But believe what about Jesus, and do what as a result? So much has been cut out
I do not know what you actually have left!!!

Again more of your misdirection and no comment comment......another cake taking post!

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah except there are a few holes in your theology

Not at all, you're assuming. Relax brother. There are, however, as is clearly seen many holes in your truncated gospel.

.....IE...your hard fast rules have exceptions!

My hard fast rules? You're tripping. All I offered was Scripture and you've addressed exactly none of it. Show me my alleged "hard fast rules". For the record, there are no exceptions to the Scriptures I offered.

The thing I offered was Biblical doctrine attesting to true belief and what it looks like, and you've offered not one verse or any rebuttal. Pretty interesting.

You really need to slow down with your false accusations and false assumptions. Slow like way down. There is no way you even read the passages as you just finished responding in another thread. Slow down and lose the false allegations and assumptions.

Thanks.

a. A tree takes maturity and growth before it produces

Ya think? Did I state otherwise? You're jumping to false conclusions asserting I said things I didn't say.

b. A genuine believer can have works of wood, hay and stubble

Wood, hay and stubble are not living and practicing sin, not bearing fruit, not following Christ, not attending church, or showing no evidence of conversion, and having no sanctification.

It is none of that or anything like it, it is quality of works, but the believer will still have works, IOW, they're not "just a believer" something I showed with the passages shared - something you didn't take time to look up, and if you did, you'd see they are not my rules.

Salvation is by Grace through faith, and it produces a product. Go ahead, refute the passages I've given and tell us all how they don't apply to believers, or, show us loopholes where they don't need apply. Or, tell us since they don't measure up to the examination of a true convert in Scripture that they are just providing "wood, hay, stubble" which is not what the text is supporting at all but I'm convinced that is what you believe it is saying.

c. Even a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus proves the type of tree and will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....

Where's the verse? You know what it says, but, more importantly what does it mean? There's more to that passage than giving a cup of water entails. It's not talking about easy-believe-ism. I've given biblical criteria as to true conversion and everyone needs to take heed.

 

[Ella85]

Not at all, you're assuming. Relax brother. There are, however, as is clearly seen many holes in your truncated gospel.



My hard fast rules? You're tripping. All I offered was Scripture and you've addressed exactly none of it. Show me my alleged "hard fast rules". For the record, there are no exceptions to the Scriptures I offered.

The thing I offered was Biblical doctrine attesting to true belief and what it looks like, and you've offered not one verse or any rebuttal. Pretty interesting.

You really need to slow down with your false accusations and false assumptions. Slow like way down. There is no way you even read the passages as you just finished responding in another thread. Slow down and lose the false allegations and assumptions.

Thanks.



Ya think? Did I state otherwise? You're jumping to false conclusions asserting I said things I didn't say.



Wood, hay and stubble are not living and practicing sin, not bearing fruit, not following Christ, not attending church, or showing no evidence of conversion, and having no sanctification.

It is none of that or anything like it, it is quality of works, but the believer will still have works, IOW, they're not "just a believer" something I showed with the passages shared - something you didn't take time to look up, and if you did, you'd see they are not my rules.

Salvation is by Grace through faith, and it produces a product. Go ahead, refute the passages I've given and tell us all how they don't apply to believers, or, show us loopholes where they don't need apply. Or, tell us since they don't measure up to the examination of a true convert in Scripture that they are just providing "wood, hay, stubble" which is not what the text is supporting at all but I'm convinced that is what you believe it is saying.



Where's the verse? You know what it says, but, more importantly what does it mean? There's more to that passage than giving a cup of water entails. It's not talking about easy-believe-ism. I've given biblical criteria as to true conversion and everyone needs to take heed.

what about the man that was on the cross next to Jesus, what works did he do when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise?

 

[preacher4truth]

Again more of your misdirection and no comment comment......another cake taking post!

Actually PeterJens is correct there, you're preaching a truncated gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

what about the man that was on the cross next to Jesus, what works did he do when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise?

Share the passage and we will examine it, what he said, why, and what it all means. He did works, and showed a work of grace. But supply the passage and we will handle it.

 

[Ella85]

Share the passage and we will examine it, what he said, why, and what it all means. He did works, and showed a work of grace. But supply the passage and we will handle it.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[preacher4truth]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That's only part of it, there were things leading up to that.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well genius, God chastens His children so they might be more fruitful.
Did not see that is your options ... wonder why not? Maybe because you
think in too narrow a way with too judgemental an attitude.

keep telling yourself that.....the end result is not the reason......the reason is rebellion.....commonly known as sin.....OH that's right your righteousness exceeds the Pharisee......

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually PeterJens is correct there, you're preaching a truncated gospel.

Not quite....

 

[dcontroversal]

what about the man that was on the cross next to Jesus, what works did he do when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise?

The workers for will find something to embellish the thief's simple act of faith for sure.....as evidenced already

 

[dcontroversal]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AMEN...no church membership, no immersion, put to death as a thief and murderer....he acknowledged the lordship and kingdom of JESUS and his sin.....

Called faith.....the simplicity that is found in JESUS

 

[Ella85]

That's only part of it, there were things leading up to that.

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The Jews.

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not quite....

No, he's absolutely correct and you're incorrect and leave many things out in your easy-believe-ism gospel.

Your gospel isn't following 2 Timothy 2:15, it is truncated, and that is a fact.

You should take time to read 1 John, and, take time to understand it. And no, you don't understand it as of now. Sorry, but that too is a fact. Your gospel is truncated and falls short. Belief is qualified, and I showed you Scripture to support that, and what did you do? You went on an attack. You really ought to take time and get the Gospel straight and take time to heed the Scriptures given you. Perhaps it will help you leave off your easy-believe-ism error.

Now go ahead, attack, slam me, call my passages "my hard fast rules". You can have the last word as you won't listen to the whole counsel of God on this.

 

[dcontroversal]

The word is simple....Jesus was clear...HE that believes on the Son is having everlasting life....this is the simplicity that is found in Christ...a child like faith required....those who deny this and add....peddle a false gospel...end of story!

 

[Grace777x70]

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


Here is Peter preaching the true gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."



Here is Paul preaching the exact same gospel.


Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

 

[dcontroversal]

No, he's absolutely correct and you're incorrect and leave many things out in your easy-believe-ism gospel.

Your gospel isn't following 2 Timothy 2:15, it is truncated, and that is a fact.

You should take time to read 1 John, and, take time to understand it. And no, you don't understand it as of now. Sorry, but that too is a fact. Your gospel is truncated and falls short. Belief is qualified, and I showed you Scripture to support that, and what did you do? You went on an attack. You really ought to take time and get the Gospel straight and take time to heed the Scriptures given you. Perhaps it will help you leave off your easy-believe-ism error.

Now go ahead, attack, slam me, call my passages "my hard fast rules". You can have the last word as you won't listen to the whole counsel of God on this.

I hear lips smackin and additions to the correct message is what I am hearing....and now your lying...I did not go on the attack pal....just posted three exceptions to your hard fast embellished rules and to be honest...I could care less what you think!...How is that?

 

[preacher4truth]

35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The Jews.

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Thanks!

Good, now, what insights did this malefactor have? Did he show that he had a revelation of who Christ was? Did he show repentance? Did he show that Christ was sinless? Did he show faith in Christ?

Did he preach Christ?

The answer to all of that is a resounding "yes". He produced works. Why? Because he was regenerate. And there is much more depth than just that on the surface.