Lord we need you! Foundational truths

[trucker62]

Can you explain the purpose of water baptism?

I have heard lot but the only one that made sense to me was "it was good enough for Jesus"

Is there any other reason besides tradition?

What about infant baptism?

ROMANS 6: 3-11 reveals what water baptism is for. It is an outward sign of an inward change. It is identifying with the Death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

When you are immersed under water it signifies that you have died with Christ and were buried with him, when you come out of the water it signifies that you have risen with Christ, the Old man in Adam died, and you have been resurrected to a new life in Christ Jesus. His very nature or Spirit is now in you!

That what the terminology being born again means. You are now a new creature in Christ and you have a new life in you. Galatians 2: 20 reveals how to live that new life.

This may offend some, but infant baptism is really just a tradition and does not account for anything. The baby has no ability to know what it is doing.

Now you can dedicate your baby to the Lord, but once that child reaches the age of accountability he or she must make the decision to receive Jesus as Lord.

Let me caveat though, water baptism does not save you. You must receive Jesus as Lord and savior before you are immersed in water. If not all you did was get wet!

 

[Ariel82]

God did number one.

DO you have to be taught the law BEFORE you get saved?

If so How did people BEFORE the law ever get saved?

The law was given to Adam and eve..

God added more as people became more corrupt.

 

[Ariel82]

No one does this.

The only people who claim this are works salvationists, who are being called out for teaching one must earn salvation by being righteous.. thus rejecting the righteousness which is found only in christ imputed to those who entrust their eternal souls to him.

G777 said the following "True repentance is believing in what Christ has done on the cross and resurrection and not on what we do or don't do. That is called the Law of Moses and is called works-righteousness. We live in the New Covenant which is faith-righteousness based."

You can't see how that statement can be easily misunderstood as a tirade against good works after salvation.

Go continue your self righteous tirade, both factions are wrong but neither will ever admit it because of their pride.

I won't say more but ask you fight your battles on another thread. The slander and hyprocrisy from both sides grieve my spirit.

No one truly listens anymore.

 

[JesusRules1]

Can you explain the purpose of water baptism?

I have heard lot but the only one that made sense to me was "it was good enough for Jesus"

Is there any other reason besides tradition?

What about infant baptism?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

We must be born of the water and Spirit.Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name.Everything we do in word or deed is in Jesus' name.Luke said baptism is to be preached in Jesus' name.No other name we are saved by but Jesus' name.Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are not names,but titles,and it says name,who is Jesus' name.

God said in the Old Testament that He would reveal a new name to the Jews,It would the name of both God and the Son.Jesus said He came in the Father's name.The Son inherited the name of the Father.The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus,by repenting of our sins,being baptized in water,and receiving the Holy Spirit,and we are a living sacrifice unto God.Jesus died,was buried,and rose from the dead,and we die to sin,bury those sins,and rise to newness of life,to identify with the man Christ Jesus,His death,burial,and resurrection,for we go through what He did,and we are a living sacrifice unto God.

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Baptism was bypassed for the thief on the cross,for he did not have the power to be baptized.Baptism can be bypassed in certain circumstances,if a person dies before being baptized,but meant to get it done,but could not get to it until a certain time,and perished before then,lack of knowledge if the Gospel is preached,and they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior,but did not come to the knowledge of baptism.In certain circumstances baptism can be bypassed.

But we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus,but some people have accepted Jesus,but could not get to baptism,for whatever reason,so they are alright.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Infants before the age of accountability do not have to be water baptized,for the first thing is to repent of sins,which they would not have a full meaning of it,and before the age of accountability are protected spiritually by angels,and angels are only sent to them who shall inherit salvation.A child before the age of accountability can never be possessed of a devil,for the wicked one can never touch them.

 

[Ariel82]

This type of language seems to be trying to do one thing, make the actor of a good deed
the most important thing and not the good deed itself.

God thinks good deeds are so great, is you do them or right deeds, He will call you
righteous, especially if you stop doing evil things and do what He commands and desires.

Now God does not care who does this stuff. In fact if you do good righteous things He
calls you righteous, and if you do evil nasty stuff he calls you an evil doer.
Faith has not yet entered to conversation, this is just behaviour.

Now if you also believe in God and walk in His ways he will count this as righteousness.
Now this is Gods language not ours.

Now let us look at our language. Faith righteousness or works righteousness.
I think what people are saying is faith righteousness occurs without doing anything
and is just imputed righteousness from Christ, and works righteousness is just our
good behaviour without Christ.

Now both are wrong. Christ righteousness bought us forgiveness of our sins.
Doing good things, walking righteously gets us Gods blessing. But then believing in
God and walking in His ways is counted as righteousness.

Now these legalist hunters will not let this one go, because they believe the biggest
evil is people believing they are doing the right thing and justifying themselves before
God, which is replacing Christ. Now it is they alone who can decide who is doing this
and who is not just showing the fruit of Christ in their lives.

So show a warning light and like leeches on your body they will try and suck the life
out of you and your faith, while calling this Gods ministry. Maybe they will be repulsed
by simple scripture

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
Matt 5:13-14

Now guess what the salt is, and the light? Our behaviour, our good works,
our love demonstrating Christ working in us.

These are simple truths being polluted by definitions which are poison to the soul
and from the enemy. What is a problem is sin that lays hidden, failure that is
unresolved, and lack of growth in love and grace in ones heart.

But this would be too much for these guys as they spend all their time putting
other believers down, lol

Do you have issue with reading comprehension?

You are talking about godliness and the need for Christians to have it. Grace777, agrees.
He says "what you do righteousness" refers to work salvation which is bad.

You agree that salvation is only by Christ work on the cross, which is "faith righteousness"

Sematics and folks unwilling to forgive, bless those who curse them, go the extra mile to learn what the other person truly means.

This is maturity in Christ?

No instead you both will call me blind to the other person's sins.

You are wrong, I see clearly your sins and my own too, I still try and play the fool for trying to make people see their hyprocrisy...

Who have you truly. Blessed that bas cursed you?

Do you even know what blessing and cursing means?

 

[Depleted]

The Lord cranks up the pressure on us if we resist learning from our mistakes.

... and next thing I know I'm stuck in the belly of a fish. AGAIN!

 

[Depleted]

Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The law is a belief system where you do things or don't do things to try to achieve your own righteousness. All works-based righteousness mindset are living from this very same principles of the Law. These do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God in Christ and thus create and develop their own D.I.Y self-righteousness.

We are only righteous in what Christ has done - get this wrong and we develop our own religion of self-works righteousness which actually is denying Christ Himself and exchanging Him for what we do. This is an anti-Christ belief system. Works-righteousness is an anti-Christ belief system.

There are fruits of righteousness but these do not make us righteous. Fruits are manifested because we are already righteous in Christ. Christ alone is our righteousness.

Paul said that in the last days they would be anti-Christ - not that they would be anti-God. There is a vast difference.

Christ alone and what He has already done on the cross and resurrection is our righteousness. 1 Cor. 1:30

No, the Law is God's belief system.

If left to myself, my believe system is "Do whatever Lynnie wants to do, and try and make others do what Lynnie wants them to do."

The Law isn't my righteousness it's my instruction manual. It tells me what God says on how to do things right. (If I accidentally killed a dog with my car, it would never dawn on me to give the dog's owner twice the amount. God's law tells me that's the right thing to do. It would have never dawned on me to not covet anyone's ability to sing. Yet, God doesn't want me to covet. I honestly never thought a bunch of things I did was wrong, until I found out God's Law. It's my instructional manual.)

Instruction manual's are important to me, because they usually teach me how to do something that requires an inclination of mechanical aptitude, and I've got none. In like kind the Law shows me how to do it like God does it, and I immediately notice I got none of that inclination either, so then it draws me to be more like him, because I can't.

I can't dance on Daddy's shoes if I don't know where his feet are. The Law is his feet. It's not nothing and it's not about me trying to be self-righteous. Self-righteous went out the window so long ago the window has been sealed shut and now can't get reopened.

 

[Ariel82]

That, and I'm pretty sure Hindu mystics don't get into "groovy" either. lol

Yeah but hippies pretending to be mysrics do

 

[Ariel82]

Honestly?

I have absolutely no idea! I've never gotten that far. (I usually get the "aw, don't give me that baloney" type. Even my family.)

But, I would do the same thing I do for homeless people on the streets in Philly. I give what I have, and then point them to the direction of a church I trust to give them even more. (Food and clothes. Possibility of a place to live, if they find them trustworthy enough not to steal the furniture over night... and always, always the gospel and a plan to return to learn more.)

Awesome answer.

Missed in my frustration over the endless slander and misrepresentations by the ongoing feud.

Sorry. I try to focus on the good, but sometimes the nastiness becomes too much.

 

[Ariel82]

No, the Law is God's belief system.

If left to myself, my believe system is "Do whatever Lynnie wants to do, and try and make others do what Lynnie wants them to do."

The Law isn't my righteousness it's my instruction manual. It tells me what God says on how to do things right. (If I accidentally killed a dog with my car, it would never dawn on me to give the dog's owner twice the amount. God's law tells me that's the right thing to do. It would have never dawned on me to not covet anyone's ability to sing. Yet, God doesn't want me to covet. I honestly never thought a bunch of things I did was wrong, until I found out God's Law. It's my instructional manual.)

Instruction manual's are important to me, because they usually teach me how to do something that requires an inclination of mechanical aptitude, and I've got none. In like kind the Law shows me how to do it like God does it, and I immediately notice I got none of that inclination either, so then it draws me to be more like him, because I can't.

I can't dance on Daddy's shoes if I don't know where his feet are. The Law is his feet. It's not nothing and it's not about me trying to be self-righteous. Self-righteous went out the window so long ago the window has been sealed shut and now can't get reopened.

Exactly!

And redefining willful sin into the sin of unbelief, is a lie and just makes people mad.

Okay it makes me mad.

Event it say something that can be obviously misunderstood, when someone points it out and yet you explain that isn't what you meant.

Then go repeat the same way of speaking over and over. Again to someone who already misunderstands you, instead of changing your language and then tell slander when the person misubdertmstands you....that is willful sin.
.that is intentionally tempting your brother to sin by poking and poking and poking until you get a reaction.

God has shown me it's wrong to incite a fight and then pretend to be innocent


What about you? Did God pound that lesson into your head like he did me?

I didn't like it, made me mad,but God taught me what true love is.

Blessing those who curse you and going the extra mile to understand and love one another.

 

[Grace777x70]

The Law had a purpose and it is not for us "to do" for righteousness. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were not meant to eat from that law nor live from it. That is for God. We were meant to eat from the tree of life which is Christ Himself.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

 

[Grace777x70]

The truth is that all willful sinning is unbelief at it's core.

This reference of Heb 10:26 to the willfully sinning is to not believe in Christ for sacrifices and instead relying on animal and temple sacrifices. This type of willful sinning will cause there to be no more sacrifices for sins because only the blood of Jesus is accepted now in the New Covenant.

Jesus Himself showed this when He said that the Holy Spirit would convict/expose/convince the world of their "sin" - their sin of unbelief in Him. John 16:8-9

If someone steals something - that is willful and it is a sin as the Law of Moses reveals it to be in fact a sin. ( in case people think it's ok to steal.) The real sin at the core of stealing is the unbelief that God will provide for them and thus they are taking matters in their own hands.

Every type of willful sinning can be traced back at it's core to show it is really unbelief in some form.

God lives from a belief system called "faith" and He is constantly trying to persuade people to believe Him. That's the way the Trinity operates within Themselves. It's the very nature of God.

 

[Ariel82]

Start with this becaue you lose many people after your first sentence...

"
If someone steals something - that is willful and it is a sin as the Law of Moses reveals it to be in fact a sin. ( in case people think it's ok to steal.) The real sin at the core of stealing is the unbelief that God will provide for them and thus they are taking matters in their own hands.

Every type of willful sinning can be traced back at it's core to show it is really unbelief in some form. "

 

[Grace777x70]

"The truth is that all willful sinning is unbelief at it's core. "

Your like a broken record G777.

Willful sin is different from the sin of unbelief and the fact you cant admit the difference gives credence to PeterJens accusations.

All works of the flesh are willful but ....Okie dokie....don't be offended Ariel because others have a difference of opinion then you do. It happens and will continue to happen. All is well.

 

[Ariel82]

Start with this becaue you lose many people after your first sentence...

"
If someone steals something - that is willful and it is a sin as the Law of Moses reveals it to be in fact a sin. ( in case people think it's ok to steal.) The real sin at the core of stealing is the unbelief that God will provide for them and thus they are taking matters in their own hands.

Every type of willful sinning can be traced back at it's core to show it is really unbelief in some form. "

***
Both are "real" sin. There is no fake sin.

I would reword it to say that t"he sin of stealing is caused by the inward sin of unbelief i, God's goodness to provide."

I see what you are saying. I just get frustrated at the continued miscommunication that if people watched their words or had more patience and kindness it would be avoided.

 

[Ariel82]

All works of the flesh are willful but ....Okie dokie....don't be offended Ariel because others have a difference of opinion then you do. It happens and will continue to happen. All is well.

My response after only reading the first sentence..thought I would save someone the trouble of over reacting and play the fool for everyone...that way I can be part of the "in crowd".

Yeah ...

 

[NayborBear]

The gospel, as I sees it now, is Our Father's undying Love for His stupid and stiff-necked children. If you take the Bible, as a whole, you can "see" how time after time after time after time when Israel drifted into rebelliousness, provoking God to anger, and thus punishment, sometimes into captivity, waiting, for Priest's and children to turn from their wicked ways, and He would heal them! As a nation! When this became IMPOSSIBLE, even after He provided a gentile King (Darius), to "sponsor" Israel to rebuild His Temple , they STILL "drifted" to the point that God could NOT "yield" any longer, and He divorced Israel! As a Nation, and individually! He sent Jesus, as a further manifestation of His undying love for His people Israel (ami), who rejected Him, as well! THEN, God said, I'll show MY Love to WHOSOEVER WILL,may come, or, individually, and not, as a whole nation! The parables Jesus taught are "hidden" insights as to the wicked works of the enemy, as well as the "efforts" of faith "invested", in not only accepting "whosoever will, may come", laying one's own burden/s AT the cross, BUT? That which one must do in "picking up one's own cross" and following Jesus, to that, and into that Holy Priesthood, that is the Order of Melchizadek! Many "come"...FEW, find it! Many called?....Few chosen!

Am I a Christian?....Oh yes, yes I am! I'm also, a "mutt"! Therefore, also, a gentile, and not Jewish, by any lineages of genealogy! A "W.A.S.P.", who believes the book of James speaking to "Those scattered!"...Does this mean that only white people can obtain salvation, thus becoming called, and yet unable in obtaining Holy Priesthood status?

GOD FORBID! Or? "What you talkin 'bout Willis?"

In this reply, I would like to apologize! I apologize for getting mixed up on the "timeline", of not why God sent Jesus Christ to earth, rather, when! Ya see God's servants, the prophets, foretold of His coming! Even that, in the N.T. that this whole current earth/heaven age, was created by Him, and FOR Him! Which, in fact, it was/is!

A way, I suppose one might look at this, is the earth/heaven age, that was before, was God's "Plan-A". "Plan-B", is when Jesus was sent to earth, as prophesied, by God's faithful servants! Noah's flood, was God reminding those of the "overthrow", that He is quite able, to "re-execute" "Plan-A"!

I would sincerely like to apologize for this mis-directing! I am, just a pilgrim, like we all are here, striving to find our way to the Father, In Jesus Christ Our High Priest, and Kinsmen Redeemer. I make mistakes! I get corrected! I am thankful, He loves me still, to correct me!

 

[Depleted]

Exactly!

And redefining willful sin into the sin of unbelief, is a lie and just makes people mad.

Okay it makes me mad.

Event it say something that can be obviously misunderstood, when someone points it out and yet you explain that isn't what you meant.

Then go repeat the same way of speaking over and over. Again to someone who already misunderstands you, instead of changing your language and then tell slander when the person misubdertmstands you....that is willful sin.
.that is intentionally tempting your brother to sin by poking and poking and poking until you get a reaction.

God has shown me it's wrong to incite a fight and then pretend to be innocent


What about you? Did God pound that lesson into your head like he did me?

I didn't like it, made me mad,but God taught me what true love is.

Blessing those who curse you and going the extra mile to understand and love one another.

Present tense. Not past tense. God's still pounding it into my head.

As far as the constant argument goes? The only way I see half of it is if someone quotes EG. (Got him ignored.)

Now I know the other side is Grace7, but he's a nice dude, so not ignored. And truthfully, I'm still hoping to get him out of grace-only. (Not like you don't know this Grace. lol)

 

[Depleted]

The Law had a purpose and it is not for us "to do" for righteousness. The Law is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were not meant to eat from that law nor live from it. That is for God. We were meant to eat from the tree of life which is Christ Himself.

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

#4 (on your Purpose for Law list.) Past tense? Already done? No need to repeat? Because truthfully, I'm a dog on the leash, and Jesus keeps having to yank me back to him again and again.

Also, how do you know what righteous is without it? (At least we agree it doesn't save.)

 

[Depleted]

The truth is that all willful sinning is unbelief at it's core.

This reference of Heb 10:26 to the willfully sinning is to not believe in Christ for sacrifices and instead relying on animal and temple sacrifices. This type of willful sinning will cause there to be no more sacrifices for sins because only the blood of Jesus is accepted now in the New Covenant.

Jesus Himself showed this when He said that the Holy Spirit would convict/expose/convince the world of their "sin" - their sin of unbelief in Him. John 16:8-9

If someone steals something - that is willful and it is a sin as the Law of Moses reveals it to be in fact a sin. ( in case people think it's ok to steal.) The real sin at the core of stealing is the unbelief that God will provide for them and thus they are taking matters in their own hands.

Every type of willful sinning can be traced back at it's core to show it is really unbelief in some form.

God lives from a belief system called "faith" and He is constantly trying to persuade people to believe Him. That's the way the Trinity operates within Themselves. It's the very nature of God.

Yeah. Unwillful sin is also unbelief at its core. We've grown up in the habit of sinful nature, so without God and without knowing what his Law is, we revert back to sinful-nature habit quicker than a hummingbird on Red Bull!