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All this talk about law. Yet people do not even understand it, I love how people who keep preaching law and works do not even understand the law taught the basis of grace.
It taught that even the most spiritual man on the earth, The most righteous man, Who spent his days doing the work of God (if he was in Gods will I am not speaking of the ones in Christ's day)
1. could only enter the presence of God once a year.
2. Could only do so AFTER he made sacrifice for his own sins (not even he was good enough to enter the presence of God apart from sacrifice)
3. Had to enter every year, Because all people STILL SINNED (atonement was not complete)
4. Christ fulfilled that in that he gave his life ONCE and sits at the right hand of God (Even though SIN WOULD STILL CONTINUE)
this proves
1. There are no sinless people
2. Apart from the cross. We would still die in our sin because we can not live up to Gods standard
3. If Christs death would not cover us, We would have to return to ani9mal sacrifice for future sin.
As I said, It is the workers who need to learn about the law..
It taught that even the most spiritual man on the earth, The most righteous man, Who spent his days doing the work of God (if he was in Gods will I am not speaking of the ones in Christ's day)
1. could only enter the presence of God once a year.
2. Could only do so AFTER he made sacrifice for his own sins (not even he was good enough to enter the presence of God apart from sacrifice)
3. Had to enter every year, Because all people STILL SINNED (atonement was not complete)
4. Christ fulfilled that in that he gave his life ONCE and sits at the right hand of God (Even though SIN WOULD STILL CONTINUE)
this proves
1. There are no sinless people
2. Apart from the cross. We would still die in our sin because we can not live up to Gods standard
3. If Christs death would not cover us, We would have to return to ani9mal sacrifice for future sin.
As I said, It is the workers who need to learn about the law..
D
Yes.....
....for sure the Law doesn't save and that it reveals the truth that without Christ we are not righteous. It reveals our need for a Savior which we know is Christ Himself.We don't need the law of Moses now. We live in the New Covenant now. God doesn't preach us the Law of Moses once we come to Christ - He preaches to us the "gospel - the good news of His Son and what He has done".
Colossians 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16[/SUP] Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Well how do we live now if we don't live by the Law of Moses? That is a good question.
People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.
We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Romans isn't that. Romans is the Christian treatise. It's the king pin on where Christianity lies. Stripped to its bare essentials it is "This is where we are. This didn't work, nor this, nor this, nor this, but this did, through God, because God this and thised. And then because God this and thised, we are to this."
Romans 1 is where we are.
Romans 2-somewhere between 7-8 is what didn't work. Where "what didn't work" is covered, it goes into exactly what worked -- God.
The God part takes us to the end of 9, or maybe into 10. (Haven't studied it for so long, can't really remember exactly where it changes.)
And then after that comes what God will have us do through him. (Because Romans 2-somewhere between 7 and 8 didn't work, so we can only do through him in us.)
James, on the other hand is there for the same reason but on the flipped side of Romans. Roman tells what God did. (Kind of the grace side of grace v. works debate.) James is our response to what God did. (Kind of the works side of grace v. works debate.)
It might be helpful for anyone (Grace People or Works People) to get that, if for no other reason than to realize both books are in God's word for a very good reason -- God made sure they got in there. HIS words.
And least you think I don't come from a "side" myself, I am of another side. I'm the Reformed, (aka Calvinist.) BIG thing in my "side" to admit James belongs in God's word. Even Calvin disagreed with that one. Each one of us has a duty for God. We really, really have to strip off our personal preferences to see what God's word says as a whole, rather than staying stuck preaching our "side."
Grace isn't wrong.
Works isn't wrong.
Even James isn't wrong.
But God doesn't do sides. He does WHOLE! The Bible tells his whole -- what he wants us to know about him. And it is all of the above: grace, works, and James. (Poor James. Kind of lowered him into a hole he didn't deserve, didn't I? lol) None of that saves. God saves. And yet, he certainly has a lot to say about works and grace. Let's try not to skip one to get to the other.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many sides to this whole!
Excellent passage and as is typical the passage will be met with accusations of works salvation, and/or that you're preaching works.
What the passage is showing is that to believers, it is God that is at work in them in a couple of ways that will disturb some from the free will camp.
God is at work in them to cause them to will (which is what "will" entails) to do what God wants; compare that with Ezekiel 36:27.
God is at work in them to cause them to will to do what God desires. Again, compare with the above.
The rebellious nature toward God has ended in the new birth, but we will have some deny that fact and dumb down the transformation and conversion to a lower level than that of revealed truth. IOW man will still attempt to have power of God and His Gospel of transformation, and deny the power of godliness as Paul warned us would happen in his last epistle.
What the passage is showing is that to believers, it is God that is at work in them in a couple of ways that will disturb some from the free will camp.
God is at work in them to cause them to will (which is what "will" entails) to do what God wants; compare that with Ezekiel 36:27.
God is at work in them to cause them to will to do what God desires. Again, compare with the above.
The rebellious nature toward God has ended in the new birth, but we will have some deny that fact and dumb down the transformation and conversion to a lower level than that of revealed truth. IOW man will still attempt to have power of God and His Gospel of transformation, and deny the power of godliness as Paul warned us would happen in his last epistle.
True repentance is believing in what Christ has done on the cross and resurrection and not on what we do or don't do.
Repentance has always been turning from sin with sorrow to walk righteously.
Righteous walking is in love, doing the right things, following Gods ways.
Believing in Christ is accepting the eternal sacrifice for sin over the temporary
one through the temple and the priests.
Cults do logical jumps that short circuit the whole system. So dealing with sin
is no longer a behaviour issue, it is just a belief issue and ones behaviour is out
of the cause and effect.
But the whole law is about behaviour, all the prophets talk about behaviour, Jesus
talked about behaviour, the apostles talked about behaviour. To eliminate behaviour
is to become apostate, to no longer follow Christ. Only delusion can make this system
work, like a person sinning in both their language and emotions against another but still
believing they know the Holy Spirit and how to preach love, peace and victory over sin.
So much double speak, taking one line, like we are pure from the day we come to Christ,
while saying it is impossible to be pure. This duality is only from people who lie continually
and just show the face they want to comply with the argument. They have no clue what they
are doing because each contradiction makes perfect sense to them, else they would explode
in disbelief at the fact it is nonsense.
In any argument you both cannot be perfect and flawed at the same time, as they are opposites.
Equally you cannot both be without condemnation and focused on righteousness, while being
convicted of sins constantly and condemning other for their failures, invented or otherwise.
It is just empty, without logic or sense, a kind of self contradicting vortex.
Repentance has always been turning from sin with sorrow to walk righteously.
Righteous walking is in love, doing the right things, following Gods ways.
Believing in Christ is accepting the eternal sacrifice for sin over the temporary
one through the temple and the priests.
Cults do logical jumps that short circuit the whole system. So dealing with sin
is no longer a behaviour issue, it is just a belief issue and ones behaviour is out
of the cause and effect.
But the whole law is about behaviour, all the prophets talk about behaviour, Jesus
talked about behaviour, the apostles talked about behaviour. To eliminate behaviour
is to become apostate, to no longer follow Christ. Only delusion can make this system
work, like a person sinning in both their language and emotions against another but still
believing they know the Holy Spirit and how to preach love, peace and victory over sin.
So much double speak, taking one line, like we are pure from the day we come to Christ,
while saying it is impossible to be pure. This duality is only from people who lie continually
and just show the face they want to comply with the argument. They have no clue what they
are doing because each contradiction makes perfect sense to them, else they would explode
in disbelief at the fact it is nonsense.
In any argument you both cannot be perfect and flawed at the same time, as they are opposites.
Equally you cannot both be without condemnation and focused on righteousness, while being
convicted of sins constantly and condemning other for their failures, invented or otherwise.
It is just empty, without logic or sense, a kind of self contradicting vortex.
1. There are no sinless people
2. Apart from the cross. We would still die in our sin because we can not live up to Gods standard
3. If Christs death would not cover us, We would have to return to ani9mal sacrifice for future sin.
As I said, It is the workers who need to learn about the law..
Scripture shows us without communion with God we die in our sins.
God shows that through sacrifice, repentance and confession we can get right with God.
The cross showed us God true heart and brought heaven to earth if we open up and
allow Christ to change us through repentance and following His ways.
Christ death gave us the door to cleansing and victory, if we then walk within its
boundaries.
Now what convinces me about experience above anything is those who have experienced
Christ moving and transforming them consistently know repentance and confession conquering
sin and changing them. Those who have failed to find this communion have resolved to
demolish it all and claim their twilight existance is what Christ intended.
All it is is constantly bringing everything back to salvation, and they are saved by faith and
all else are lost. But this is all they have, nothing else has a focus because the rest leads
to different conclusions which they can never face.
2. Apart from the cross. We would still die in our sin because we can not live up to Gods standard
3. If Christs death would not cover us, We would have to return to ani9mal sacrifice for future sin.
As I said, It is the workers who need to learn about the law..
Scripture shows us without communion with God we die in our sins.
God shows that through sacrifice, repentance and confession we can get right with God.
The cross showed us God true heart and brought heaven to earth if we open up and
allow Christ to change us through repentance and following His ways.
Christ death gave us the door to cleansing and victory, if we then walk within its
boundaries.
Now what convinces me about experience above anything is those who have experienced
Christ moving and transforming them consistently know repentance and confession conquering
sin and changing them. Those who have failed to find this communion have resolved to
demolish it all and claim their twilight existance is what Christ intended.
All it is is constantly bringing everything back to salvation, and they are saved by faith and
all else are lost. But this is all they have, nothing else has a focus because the rest leads
to different conclusions which they can never face.
There are "fruits" of repentance ( changing the mind )
To us believers it means to change our mind to stop relying on ourselves and our thinking and turn to God. Stop living our own life with our own thinking and come to Christ and let His life live through and in you. Receive all that Jesus did for us in His finished work.
Jesus said it best. "Repent and believe the gospel". Mark 1:15
We should be repenting ( changing how we think towards something ) constantly as we see the Lord's true nature, love and grace revealed to and in us.
However "stop sinning" will be a fruit of having already repented ( changed your mind to trust in the gospel which is Christ )
Yes... this includes how we view sinning in all it's forms from living the homosexual lifestyle to exhibiting malice, deceit and the slandering of others in the body of Christ.
There will always be "fruits" of having a changed mind ( having already repented ) to God but the "fruit" is not the repentance within itself. True repentance is the "root" before the "fruit" comes.
The fruit will manifest itself in the form of having a changed heart because we are a new creation in Christ. This will also show in behavior as the life of Christ transforms our outward life to reflect what has already happened in our inner man - that new creation in Christ.
To us believers it means to change our mind to stop relying on ourselves and our thinking and turn to God. Stop living our own life with our own thinking and come to Christ and let His life live through and in you. Receive all that Jesus did for us in His finished work.
Jesus said it best. "Repent and believe the gospel". Mark 1:15
We should be repenting ( changing how we think towards something ) constantly as we see the Lord's true nature, love and grace revealed to and in us.
However "stop sinning" will be a fruit of having already repented ( changed your mind to trust in the gospel which is Christ )
Yes... this includes how we view sinning in all it's forms from living the homosexual lifestyle to exhibiting malice, deceit and the slandering of others in the body of Christ.
There will always be "fruits" of having a changed mind ( having already repented ) to God but the "fruit" is not the repentance within itself. True repentance is the "root" before the "fruit" comes.
The fruit will manifest itself in the form of having a changed heart because we are a new creation in Christ. This will also show in behavior as the life of Christ transforms our outward life to reflect what has already happened in our inner man - that new creation in Christ.
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The only people I know saying slander is you guys. For no good reason you declare
people unbelievers, even when they trust and follow Jesus.
You claim not to be able to see the heart, yet to claim definatively this group are ok
and this group are not. That is called situational ethics, where for the sake of an argument
you will deny a position and then the next argument because it suits you take the position.
It means you lie, constantly both about what you believe and why, and what you stand for.
It is like becoming legion and showing whatever fits for the moment. Now it does not work
when all the faces are put together in one place. It is why I literally rarely read the contributions
other than to see which face is being painted now. Because if I believed that was the position,
next post it might be the opposite.
It is why someone can say you do not know what I believe, because today it might be the opposite
of yesterday or tomorrow. I have met another shape shifting faith like this, and they are very
successful because everyone believes the picture they see, because it is the reflection of what the
hoped they would see and truth is irrelevant.
people unbelievers, even when they trust and follow Jesus.
You claim not to be able to see the heart, yet to claim definatively this group are ok
and this group are not. That is called situational ethics, where for the sake of an argument
you will deny a position and then the next argument because it suits you take the position.
It means you lie, constantly both about what you believe and why, and what you stand for.
It is like becoming legion and showing whatever fits for the moment. Now it does not work
when all the faces are put together in one place. It is why I literally rarely read the contributions
other than to see which face is being painted now. Because if I believed that was the position,
next post it might be the opposite.
It is why someone can say you do not know what I believe, because today it might be the opposite
of yesterday or tomorrow. I have met another shape shifting faith like this, and they are very
successful because everyone believes the picture they see, because it is the reflection of what the
hoped they would see and truth is irrelevant.
The funny thing is I thought we believed and followed the same Lord.
So when I am with my brothers and sisters in Christ, are we all deceived
or are we praising the Lord and our saviour.
Now I love people praising the Lord and seeking His face. Because that
is what we are called to do. Now whatever your position is if you praise
Jesus and follow His ways, amen.
So when I am with my brothers and sisters in Christ, are we all deceived
or are we praising the Lord and our saviour.
Now I love people praising the Lord and seeking His face. Because that
is what we are called to do. Now whatever your position is if you praise
Jesus and follow His ways, amen.
All religions operate from the principle that good works originate from Christ? Seriously????
What in the world is wrong with you?????? That is one of the most absurd and asinine comments I've ever heard from a professing believer.
You are completely out on a limb here. "Without me you can do nothing". John 15:5. And you call it humanistic to attribute it all, and rightly so, to Christ? "Every good and perfect gift comes from above..." Hmmmm. Philippians 2:13 "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
In other words, it is only due to God that we work good. But, you call that humanism? What a twisted and wrested view that is. We attribute all our good works to God, but to you that means "humanism".
It is no wonder you endorse Osteen and his humanistic man-centric false gospel.
Hmmm, giving God all the glory for all good because all comes from Him for His glory...is humanism? WOW! Utterly ridiculous heresy. Goodness sake!
What in the world is wrong with you?????? That is one of the most absurd and asinine comments I've ever heard from a professing believer.
You are completely out on a limb here. "Without me you can do nothing". John 15:5. And you call it humanistic to attribute it all, and rightly so, to Christ? "Every good and perfect gift comes from above..." Hmmmm. Philippians 2:13 "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
In other words, it is only due to God that we work good. But, you call that humanism? What a twisted and wrested view that is. We attribute all our good works to God, but to you that means "humanism".
It is no wonder you endorse Osteen and his humanistic man-centric false gospel.
Hmmm, giving God all the glory for all good because all comes from Him for His glory...is humanism? WOW! Utterly ridiculous heresy. Goodness sake!