Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Locutus

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

It is not meaningless but is man's side. Election is God's side

 

[trofimus]

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"
Ez 18:32

This is the contextual ending of the place in Ez you posted.

Could you please explain to me how you can get a new heart and a new spirit just by yourself without the help of God?

 

[trofimus]

"Cast away from yourselves all your ungodliness wherein ye have sinned against me; and make to yourselves a new heart and a new spirit: for why should ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I desire not the death of him that dies, saith the Lord."

LXX

 

[Locutus]

It is not meaningless but is man's side. Election is God's side

Now I can see what yer saying....

 

[royalscot]

then ask ,what man seen 70 ad, from the writers of the bible.

logus v rhema would be a lesson worth learning. \0/

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Locutus

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

If it's not possible do to the above, "turn from his ways" according to "Total Depravity" then the above statement accorded to God by his prophet then it becomes a meaningless statement.

It is not meaningless but is man's side. Election is God's side

What you seem to fail to appreciate is that the Bible sometimes looks at things from Man's side, and sometimes from God's side.

On the one hand it is declaring what we have to do. On the other it teaches what God is doing.

From man's point of view we have to turn from our ways. From God's point of view He turns us from our ways.

On the one hand 'Whoever will may come.' On the other we are 'chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.'

On the one hand 'he who comes to me will never hunger'. On the other, 'all that the Father gives me will come to me'.

 

[DJ2]

Still looking for the unchosen believers of Calvinism. Surely someone accepts John Calvin's train of thought but is willing to admit to being part of the majority of the doomed. Anyone?? Is believing Calvinism the litmus test on knowing you have a "get out of hell free card"? If not what is??

 

[Locutus]

It has to be the most useless doctrine known to man - non elect are going to hell, may as well make a havoc while the party last.

 

[Spokenpassage]

It has to be the most useless doctrine known to man - non elect are going to hell, may as well make a havoc while the party last.

It has strengthened, encouraged, comforted me through my trials. Before the Lord taught me these precious truths, I feared of falling away, and countless times I was told to rededicate my life over and over again by persons who did not know what they were teaching. My life will never be the same, because it had widened my view of God and his love and power.

It may be useless to you, but it was never to me.

 

[royalscot]

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable Romans 11

when was it up to you to save your selfs, you would have though ,who ever told you about jesus would have added the part about a saviour , the fact you think you can fall away, or be snatched out of gods hand, would worry most children of the faith.

 

[Locutus]

It has strengthened, encouraged, comforted me through my trials. Before the Lord taught me these precious truths, I feared of falling away, and countless times I was told to rededicate my life over and over again by persons who did not know what they were teaching. My life will never be the same, because it had widened my view of God and his love and power.

It may be useless to you, but it was never to me.

And how does this prove you are elect or that Calvin's "twolips" are biblical.

I'm sure some of those ISIS members were just as convinced of their "doctrine" and comforted till the end.

 

[Spokenpassage]

And how does this prove you are elect or that Calvin's "twolips" are biblical.

I'm sure some of those ISIS members were just as convinced of their "doctrine" and comforted till the end.

I prove I am an elect by my persevering in the faith. Calvinism has everything to do with God acting first and only in everything, and being behind the scenes in our conversion.

Being 'elect' does not make you some special individual, it shows how profound his love is. The fact that my election has nothing to do with me, but everything to do with what God has purposed, is comforting. That it does not depend on my exertion, but in his mercy.

Keep calling it unbiblical, while I continue to find God's love unconditional and sanctifying me in my life.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I remember talking to my Sunni friend about the gospel. She shared her thoughts and said that the gospel gives us the license to sin, because accountability is being overlooked on the individual. I told her that the gospel is the power of God to convert the soul and change our hearts to love what is spiritual. She continued to assume we believe we can sin and trust that Jesus has paid our penalty, not knowing what else is entailed in the working of the gospel in our lives.

Now, I mention this because this is how this conversation heads to, just as it did with my Islamic friend. It is assumed that those who believe in election believe that we are free in regard to obeying the written word of God.

We aren't elected and that's it. We are elected in Christ to be his people and to live for him. If you are not living a life repentance and holiness, you are showing yourself that you are probably deceived or trying to deceive people into believing you are a Christian. The elect are those unworthy individuals that God with love drew to hear the gospel, worked on them to respond to the gospel, and are being led by him to live in the gospel. It is an organic whole, you cannot have one without the other. If you are chosen to have genuine faith in Christ, you are also chosen to live that gospel filled life after conversion until you die or Christ returns. As it written, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12, 13)

As it says in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

It is silly to say that everyone was "created in Christ Jesus," let alone "for good works" in him. It also mentioned that God prepared us to do good works beforehand. How can we even attempt to reword this?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I remember talking to my Sunni friend about the gospel. She shared her thoughts and said that the gospel gives us the license to sin, because accountability is being overlooked on the individual. I told her that the gospel is the power of God to convert the soul and change our hearts to love what is spiritual. She continued to assume we believe we can sin and trust that Jesus has paid our penalty, not knowing what else is entailed in the working of the gospel in our lives.

Now, I mention this because this is how this conversation heads to, just as it did with my Islamic friend. It is assumed that those who believe in election believe that we are free in regard to obeying the written word of God.

We aren't elected and that's it. We are elected in Christ to be his people and to live for him. If you are not living a life repentance and holiness, you are showing yourself that you are probably deceived or trying to deceive people into believing you are a Christian. The elect are those unworthy individuals that God with love drew to hear the gospel, worked on them to respond to the gospel, and are being led by him to live in the gospel. It is an organic whole, you cannot have one without the other. If you are chosen to have genuine faith in Christ, you are also chosen to live that gospel filled life after conversion until you die or Christ returns. As it written, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12, 13)

As it says in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

It is silly to say that everyone was "created in Christ Jesus," let alone "for good works" in him. It also mentioned that God prepared us to do good works beforehand. How can we even attempt to reword this?

So did God pre elect a infant to go to heaven or hell?

If an infant was to die your saying they are pre elected to go to heaven or hell?

 

[Spokenpassage]

So did God pre elect a infant to go to heaven or hell?

If an infant was to die your saying they are pre elected to go to heaven or hell?

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us..."

- Deuteronomy 29:29

 

[psalm6819]

This false doctrine is an outrage. It's a disgrace and doesn't represent God,Jesus or Holy Spirit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Issachar92,

You posted this...

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

The problem with those who oppose Limited/Definite Atonement is they conflate with 'whole world' meaning 'all who ever lived'. Now, let's take a deeper look at 1 John 2:2. I will use the NIV...

He is the 'atoning sacrifice' for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Atoning sacrifice is 'propitiation' in other translations.

Now, what does 'propitiation' actually mean and entail? It comes from the Greek word hilasmos which means an appeasing, propitiating, the means of appeasing, a propitiation.

Now, if propitiation of the whole world means 'all who ever lived' then God's wrath has been appeased. And if God's wrath has been appeased for all who ever lived, then no one ends up in hell.

Also take into account it was God, and not mankind, that was propitiated.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It depends on how you understand Tulip.



It may stop them 'striving'. It encourages their continuance in Him as we work together with Him knowing that He holds us safe...



Because God told him to, as He has told us all. And because he had a worth while message to proclaim?



I am not a Calvinist. I am a Scriptural believer.

And that makes you a Calvinist.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Greetings to you dear reader.

Howdy!!

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

Spurgeon preached because we are commanded to preach and/or witness to ppl. That is the only way ppl are saved, via the gospel of the Christ.

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

God gave the Jews the Law knowing they could not keep it. He also warned them that if/when they broke it, they would be punished, even by death in some cases. God commands us to be holy as He is holy. This is not a suggestion on His part, but a command. Are we able to be as holy as He is? No. Yet He commands us to be. We are commanded to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, & strength. Are we able to do these? No. Yet we are still commanded to do them.

God is the Standard that we are measured by. The only reason why we, the believers, stand before Him is because everything the Christ did, He did for His sheep. All that He is has been imputed/accounted/credited to them and God sees them as righteous as the Christ is righteous.

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

The great commission. None are saved w/o the clarion call of the gospel.

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

Irresistible grace means that ppl who are saved didn't resist all the way to perdition.

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)

I think its odd that ppl who hold to free will hold to eternal security. That goes against free will.

(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

Release the hounds!!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

This false doctrine is an outrage. It's a disgrace and doesn't represent God,Jesus or Holy Spirit.

Howso???????