Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)
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S
I find his argument on the covenants unbiblical, but not heresy. How could you believe that the Old Covenant is just another administration of the Covenant of Grace? Ah, to justify infant baptism and their place is the Covenant's blessings.
John Owen does well, more than well, to correct Calvin on this issue.
John Owen does well, more than well, to correct Calvin on this issue.
In my opinion anyone who reads romans 9 honestly should understand election and God's sovereignity, let alone all the other passages of scripture that talk about it, I know that's how I came to understand election, I have never read anything by Calvin in my whole life (maybe things that people quote yeah).
Its plain as day
[h=1]Luke 18:15-17New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][FONT="]15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
This was an actual event happening so its kinda hard to turn this into a parable or something.
17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
Now what Jesus did was use this real life example as a teaching opportunity to adults.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:13-15New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][FONT="]13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=1]16 “For God loved the world in this way:[a] He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
[/h][h=1]Titus 2:11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=1]11 For the grace of God has appeared with salvation[a] for all people,
If little children belong to the kingdom. And salvation was made possible for all people who believe, then there must come a point when a child grows up is capable of understanding to hear the message of right and wrong of God
[/h][h=1]Romans 4:15Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]15 For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 5:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 7:7-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Sin’s Use of the Law[/h][FONT="]7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.[a] 8 And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 7:9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]9 Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
These verses are the reason why children's sin is not charged to their account when they do not understand or heard of Gods law. So the conclusion since all infants are not charged with sin, then at some point, they are. Meaning everyone has the gift of salvation. But once you grow up and hear the gospel, you are capable of understanding, Gods law gave you the acknowledgment of sin and then you have a choice to respond or deny the very gift of salvation.
Predestination or election is just a way to describe Gods all knowing and seeing. He predestined to save all and God can see the end game and who the elect will be. Not that he changes anything, he just is all seeing and knowing. God honors free will. My study on time in the eyes of God may help this make sense.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/150028-time.html [/FONT]
[h=1]Luke 18:15-17New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][FONT="]15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
This was an actual event happening so its kinda hard to turn this into a parable or something.
17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
Now what Jesus did was use this real life example as a teaching opportunity to adults.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:13-15New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Little Children and Jesus[/h][FONT="]13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=1]16 “For God loved the world in this way:[a] He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
[/h][h=1]Titus 2:11Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=1]11 For the grace of God has appeared with salvation[a] for all people,
If little children belong to the kingdom. And salvation was made possible for all people who believe, then there must come a point when a child grows up is capable of understanding to hear the message of right and wrong of God
[/h][h=1]Romans 4:15Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]15 For the law produces wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 5:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 7:7-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Sin’s Use of the Law[/h][FONT="]7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.[a] 8 And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.
[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 7:9Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT="]9 Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
These verses are the reason why children's sin is not charged to their account when they do not understand or heard of Gods law. So the conclusion since all infants are not charged with sin, then at some point, they are. Meaning everyone has the gift of salvation. But once you grow up and hear the gospel, you are capable of understanding, Gods law gave you the acknowledgment of sin and then you have a choice to respond or deny the very gift of salvation.
Predestination or election is just a way to describe Gods all knowing and seeing. He predestined to save all and God can see the end game and who the elect will be. Not that he changes anything, he just is all seeing and knowing. God honors free will. My study on time in the eyes of God may help this make sense.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/150028-time.html [/FONT]
Revelation 20
10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]165[e]
aiōnas
αἰῶνας
ages
N-AMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3588[e]
tōn
τῶν
of the
Art-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]165[e]
aiōnōn
αἰώνων .
ages
N-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Notice the Devil, beast, and false prophet has no mention of second death but a different outcome of torment. Forever and ever is translated from the words aionon ton aionon. Ages of the ages which is a very long time and us humans do not have the knowledge or capabilities to understand if God will even torment Satin forever as translated in the HCSB bible. We only know it will be ages of the ages.
14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.This is the second death, the lake of fire.[g]15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death and hell will be thrown in and no longer exist. It will no longer be needed for the new heaven and new earth. The first death is our mortal death and we go to heaven or hell. Then when Christ returns to abolish evil forever there will be the second death.
Revelation 21:4-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Death will no longer exist;
grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer,
because the previous things[a] have passed away.
5 Then the One seated on the throne said, “Look! I am making everything new.” He also said, “Write, because these words[b] are faithful and true.” 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water as a gift to the thirsty from the spring of life. 7 The victor will inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. 8 But the cowards, unbelievers,[c]vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
God could have used the same words that end in verse 10, but God chose very different words saying second death.
Our God is a good, loving, merciful, and righteous God. God is the perfect judge. God tells us to love our enemies and neighbors. The religion of Christianity is a religion of love. In fact, God is love. This is the very nature of God. And it's not hard to see this in the very last chapters. God judged the wicked and the wicked paid with whatever hell consists of. And God who probably no doubt in my mind, who tell us to love our enemies, probably still loves his eternally lost children. And so by this second death, they will no longer be tormented and be eternally oblivious to exist anymore. Forever gone. We also must remember
2 Peter 3:8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
So by the time this second death is given. To the souls in hell, it will have felt like an eternity.
Here are some verses that might help.
Deuteronomy 10:15 “Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.”
2 Samuel 21:6 “let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul, the chosen of the LORD.” And the king said, “I will give them.”
Nehemiah 9:7 “You are the LORD, the God who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.”
Psalms 33:12 “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!”
Joshua 24:2-3 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.”
This last verse is interesting, notice The Lord TOOK Abraham out of the land where he served other gods, then He lead throughout all the land of Canaan. This verse also take the wind out of the sail for those that say, that I had faith then God saved me. Look at Abraham the Lord took Him, you get the feel of He snatched him out of hie father land, where he was serving other gods, so he had no faith in God. His faith did not come until God moved on him first or the Lord took, talked to him and he believed and it was counted to him as righteousness Romans 4:20.
Deuteronomy 10:15 “Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.”
2 Samuel 21:6 “let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul, the chosen of the LORD.” And the king said, “I will give them.”
Nehemiah 9:7 “You are the LORD, the God who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.”
Psalms 33:12 “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!”
Joshua 24:2-3 “And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.”
This last verse is interesting, notice The Lord TOOK Abraham out of the land where he served other gods, then He lead throughout all the land of Canaan. This verse also take the wind out of the sail for those that say, that I had faith then God saved me. Look at Abraham the Lord took Him, you get the feel of He snatched him out of hie father land, where he was serving other gods, so he had no faith in God. His faith did not come until God moved on him first or the Lord took, talked to him and he believed and it was counted to him as righteousness Romans 4:20.
What's interesting is the first word in the Greek Houtōs or 3779 in the Strong's Greek dictionary can be translated "in this manner or in this way" God loved the world by giving His Son. A reading of John 10 and in just about every spite it speaks of Christ giving Himself for the Church or while we were still sinners Christ died for US (the elect) not the world. Read John 17 His priestly prayed in verses 8-10 "For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them......20 I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,"
He speak of the elect and how He is not praying for the world, but for the apostles and those that will believe through them
He speak of the elect and how He is not praying for the world, but for the apostles and those that will believe through them
S
"Notice the Devil, beast, and false prophet has no mention of second death but a different outcome of torment."
Actually Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death, so it is the same outcome.
"Forever and ever is translated from the words aionon ton aionon. Ages of the ages which is a very long time and us humans do not have the knowledge or capabilities to understand if God will even torment Satin forever as translated in the HCSB bible. We only know it will be ages of the ages."
So if aionon does not truly mean forever in eternity, then we won't be in heaven forever in eternity either, because that same word for forever is there for the word "eternal life."
Actually Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death, so it is the same outcome.
"Forever and ever is translated from the words aionon ton aionon. Ages of the ages which is a very long time and us humans do not have the knowledge or capabilities to understand if God will even torment Satin forever as translated in the HCSB bible. We only know it will be ages of the ages."
So if aionon does not truly mean forever in eternity, then we won't be in heaven forever in eternity either, because that same word for forever is there for the word "eternal life."
Wifey and I can't have kids, but any infant that dies is in His hands to do as He pleases.
Now, if babies are born innocent, and upon death automatically ushered into heaven upon death, it would be horrifically cruel to allow them to grow up with the chances of them coming to the 'age of accountability' and then die lost.
Now, if babies are born innocent, and upon death automatically ushered into heaven upon death, it would be horrifically cruel to allow them to grow up with the chances of them coming to the 'age of accountability' and then die lost.
