Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[Angela_grace]

ADAM fell by sin...for sure he and eve had fallen sinful bodies after the fall.......and I did not mean to offend you.....sorry

Yes, after the fall. But not when God had first created them or when they committed the sin.

It's fine. All's good

 

[eternally-gratefull]

CALLED chastisement in a believer......I.E> a good butt whippin

for those of us who have had their but whipped by God.. We wonder why they can not see this..

 

[Angela_grace]

I disagree,

The penalty of sin had power over us, Which made the law rule over us,

but Again, sin did not have rullig power, again, I mention Abraham and David..

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Could you rephrase it maybe? Thanks

 

[blue_ladybug]

So you think that sin does NOT have control over everybody's lives today? Oh yes it does... IF they fall into temptation and act on it.. And also, not a person on earth, either back then OR today, is righteous.. Not a single one. And in this quote right here, you said sin HAS been defeated. But in your other quote which is also here, you say sin has NOT been defeated. So which is it? Either sin was defeated while Jesus died on the cross, OR sin is still going strong today and was NOT defeated by the cross. One thing Jesus' death did NOT do, was change the fact that sin still exists today, BUT has been defeated even though sin (satan) won't admit it.

Originally Posted by Angela_grace

Wow, I think I'll stop now. Obviously, you don't really care to listen what I have to say. And why the need to tear people down? I honestly believe there was a defining point when Jesus ascended into heaven and gave us his spirit. After Jesus was crucified sin was defeated, not before.

my point is that sin still had control over everyone's life before Jesus was crucified. Yes, they had faith and it was counted unto the them as righteousness. But sin itself has not been defeated.

 

[dcontroversal]

my point is that sin still had control over everyone's life before Jesus was crucified. Yes, they had faith and it was counted unto the them as righteousness. But sin itself has not been defeated.

What is it that overcomes this world and gives us victory...FAITH

How did Job, Abraham, Enoch, Noah and others overcome sin and BE FOUND righteous, holy, upright etc????

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Could you rephrase it maybe? Thanks

The law had power over us, The law condemned us,, Because as you even admit, You still sin.

Sin did not have power. Because when we are saved, We are empowered.. That is just as true for the OT as it is in the new.

We do have greater power. because we do not have the law hanging over us.. Abraham and David were just as righteous as we are.. Maybe more. (as far as works go)

 

[mj007]

Is it fair to say that everyone has a different perception, opinion, ideas, translation, of their interpretation of the Bible and God and Jesus? We are all complex human beings and none of us are perfectly cloned robots.

You 2 guys, seem to talk about sinless perfection and try to see it in what people say. I'm not sure why really apart from what I think it might be below;

What is it about coming across all the time, that you and dcontroversal are perfect in your perception, opinion, ideas, translation of these things, compared to others, and that others are imperfect and therefore you have to correct them?

Why not just appreciate the beauty of accepting each of us are different, that we are free to express different opinions to each other, as long as we are not 'destructive' in them, and we are not meant to define separate islands, we are supposed to try and merge our islands so that we become one in mind about God. That we 'bring God present'. I mean; underneath your mind, I know this is what you want, and it comes more from a loving place. Right?*

*if you take the time to think about it. For a moment.

1. No one here is saying it is ok to sin
2. No one here denys Gods power he gave us over sin
3. No one denys the victory we have in God over sin.

So when someone argues against us, and declairs we have power over sin.

we must assume they are teaching sinless perfection.

or they do not understand what we believe


It seems odd to say we have power over sin, when you admit you still sin, (in the context that we too understand wer have power over sin, annd are using that to come against us.)

 

[Angela_grace]

So you think that sin does NOT have control over everybody's lives today? Oh yes it does... IF they fall into temptation and act on it.. And also, not a person on earth, either back then OR today, is righteous.. Not a single one. And in this quote right here, you said sin HAS been defeated. But in your other quote which is also here, you say sin has NOT been defeated. So which is it? Either sin was defeated while Jesus died on the cross, OR sin is still going strong today and was NOT defeated by the cross. One thing Jesus' death did NOT do, was change the fact that sin still exists today, BUT has been defeated even though sin (satan) won't admit it.

Originally Posted by Angela_grace

Wow, I think I'll stop now. Obviously, you don't really care to listen what I have to say. And why the need to tear people down? I honestly believe there was a defining point when Jesus ascended into heaven and gave us his spirit. After Jesus was crucified sin was defeated, not before.

Um, no I didn't say that sin doesn't exist today. It very much does. But Jesus paid that price when he was crucified. Now whether people choose to except that is up to them.

sorry about that other thing it was a typo. I meant sin had not been defeated in the OT times. Today sin has been defeated.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is it fair to say that everyone has a different perception, opinion, ideas, translation, of their interpretation of the Bible and God and Jesus? We are all complex human beings and none of us are perfectly cloned robots.

You 2 guys, seem to talk about sinless perfection and try to see it in what people say. I'm not sure why really apart from what I think it might be below;

What is it about coming across all the time, that you and dcontroversal are perfect in your perception, opinion, ideas, translation of these things, compared to others, and that others are imperfect and therefore you have to correct them?

Why not just appreciate the beauty of accepting each of us are different, that we are free to express different opinions to each other, as long as we are not 'destructive' in them, and we are not meant to define separate islands, we are supposed to try and merge our islands so that we become one in mind about God. That we 'bring God present'. I mean; underneath your mind, I know this is what you want, and it comes more from a loving place. Right?*

*if you take the time to think about it. For a moment.

again, it sue, Why tell us we have power over sin, unless we do. The reason we ask if they are sinless is to get them to think.. Yes they still sin, like we all do.

It is actually if you think of it an insult to tell people what they have been saying all along as if they disagree with it. It shows they either are not listening to you. Or just trying to push their view on you, so much so they can not see what they are saying..

and yes, It gets frustrating,, I get that,, For both sides.. And any times, we do go overboardd responding, I confess. .

 

[Chris1975]

Wow, I think I'll stop now. Obviously, you don't really care to listen what I have to say. And why the need to tear people down? I honestly believe there was a defining point when Jesus ascended into heaven and gave us his spirit. After Jesus was crucified sin was defeated, not before.[/QUOTE\]
Sorry, did not mean to be so harsh....

I was just going by your words....you said the HS empowers us not to sin, yet you admit you sin....so....can I logically deduce by your words...

a. You have not been empowered
b. You lack the empowering Spirit
c. You don't have it

OR there is option d.

We are saved, our spirit does not sin and we are still bound with a fallen body of sin that occasionally wins and we fail and sin?

1) Adam didn't have to sin. He didn't have the corrupt nature until he chose to disobey God and the curse came as a result
2) All children born to Adam (bloodline from a single man) are born into this curse. The flesh has as a default mode of operation to SIN.
3) A child born into this will not fall under this judgement if they die very young. However there comes an age of accountability (God knows this particular age/time for every believer).
4) Paul writes in Romans 7v9 "I once alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died". Paul is talking about the transition from his age of innocence into the bondage of sin through his conscience (con "with" science "knowledge"). This conscience actually slays each believer (tree of knowledge of good and evil) as we become aware of the law, or at least right from wrong, and we do the wrong anyway.
5) Paul goes on to confirm that the very law which points out transgressions is Good (verse 12,13)
6) Paul says that no matter what he tries, he cannot perform. Whether to try do good- he cant; to try avoid evil - he cant (verse 15-20)
7) Paul comes to the point of exasperation (verse 24). He realises that he cannot defeat sin in his own strength. Every true convert, if it is to be a true conversion --- HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS STEP. Awareness of transgression, awareness of their inability, and a realisation they need help.
8) verse 24 - WHO WILL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH? Finally the right question is asked!!
9) verse 25 - the SOLUTION. Jesus Christ

Now we get into a very interesting section. The start of Romans Chapter 8. Note three things in chapter 8.
a) Flesh - totally corrupt
b) Soul - Mind (here's a clue - this is where the decisions going forward will be made. A restoration of the situation Adam had - remember earlier - he didnt HAVE TO sin. He could choose not to. This is Free Will restored)
c) Spirit - Totally incorruptible. The God nature that is birthed within you once you accept Christ and are born again.

Now read chapter 8 in the context of what your SOUL (Mind) chooses. Take it step by step.
1) Ch8 v5 - For those who live according to the flesh SET THEIR MINDS on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. ---- do you see this? You choose what you set your mind to. After you become a believer (clearly) because an unbeliever doesn't have the Spirit. So clearly this passage of scripture can only be referring to the church/believers. And its saying there are CHOICES to be made daily.
2) Verse 9-13. Only a believer who has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within them can defeat the flesh on a daily walk (pick up your cross daily). Without the Spirit of Christ, the flesh rules. With the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit rules.

So can this be done? Can we take the bible at its word? Is it possible to this stop sinning? The bible says this is possible by the Spirit, and with YOUR PART. Co-operation with God. Setting your MIND on the things of the Spirit and not of the flesh. If you are not going to get with the program, don't for one second think you are going to get shoved into heaven.

God did His part already on the cross. Your part is cooperating with the plan.

 

[Angela_grace]

The law had power over us, The law condemned us,, Because as you even admit, You still sin.

Sin did not have power. Because when we are saved, We are empowered.. That is just as true for the OT as it is in the new.

We do have greater power. because we do not have the law hanging over us.. Abraham and David were just as righteous as we are.. Maybe more. (as far as works go)

Hmmmm.....I think sin does have power over us. Take a baby for example, you don't have to teach that child to disobey(sin) but rather obey. "For we know that the old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might no longer be enslaved to sin." Rom 6:6 I think that implies sin has control/power over us.

 

[BillG]

for those of us who have had their but whipped by God.. We wonder why they can not see this..

All that does is install fear.

A lot of beleivers don't actually understand how God chastises us.

I think if a believer whose upbringing has been along the lines of being butt whipped and a belt taken to them will relate the pain and negativity with it and relay it to God.

 

[mj007]

Well, say something loving. Something warm. Something kind.

While you guys come across very 'intelligent' and 'knowledgeable', try not to forget that apart from intelligence, it is love which is the highest intelligence above all.

You know, like even, pointing out the 'good' things people say. Often the need to be right, or to look for errors in others so we can correct them, and to have someone exist that gives us the ability to catalyse being right, actually comes from a place of feeling somewhat 'powerless'. Like life can make us feel powerless sometimes. Or situations in our life.

We have much to teach each other always. I am your pupil, you are my teacher, you are my pupil, I am your teacher. It's never really one over the other as the better teacher.

Don't you find, we learn so much more in a discussion, if we leave that discussion with a warm smile. "I enjoyed that time." Often being right, above any person, only brings a self-satisfaction, which is not sustaining. Better to share the bottle of water than to keep it for yourself.

again, it sue, Why tell us we have power over sin, unless we do. The reason we ask if they are sinless is to get them to think.. Yes they still sin, like we all do.

It is actually if you think of it an insult to tell people what they have been saying all along as if they disagree with it. It shows they either are not listening to you. Or just trying to push their view on you, so much so they can not see what they are saying..

and yes, It gets frustrating,, I get that,, For both sides.. And any times, we do go overboardd responding, I confess. .

 

[Grace777x70]

Sin is still in our members of our body and will be until we die and then eventually we get a new resurrected flesh and bone body that is immortal like the Lord's.

Sin as a noun used in Romans 6 & 7 is different then sinning - the verb. Knowing this difference changed my life to help me walk by the spirit instead of the flesh.

 

[dcontroversal]

1) Adam didn't have to sin. He didn't have the corrupt nature until he chose to disobey God and the curse came as a result
2) All children born to Adam (bloodline from a single man) are born into this curse. The flesh has as a default mode of operation to SIN.
3) A child born into this will not fall under this judgement if they die very young. However there comes an age of accountability (God knows this particular age/time for every believer).
4) Paul writes in Romans 7v9 "I once alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died". Paul is talking about the transition from his age of innocence into the bondage of sin through his conscience (con "with" science "knowledge"). This conscience actually slays each believer (tree of knowledge of good and evil) as we become aware of the law, or at least right from wrong, and we do the wrong anyway.
5) Paul goes on to confirm that the very law which points out transgressions is Good (verse 12,13)
6) Paul says that no matter what he tries, he cannot perform. Whether to try do good- he cant; to try avoid evil - he cant (verse 15-20)
7) Paul comes to the point of exasperation (verse 24). He realises that he cannot defeat sin in his own strength. Every true convert, if it is to be a true conversion --- HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS STEP. Awareness of transgression, awareness of their inability, and a realisation they need help.
8) verse 24 - WHO WILL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH? Finally the right question is asked!!
9) verse 25 - the SOLUTION. Jesus Christ

Now we get into a very interesting section. The start of Romans Chapter 8. Note three things in chapter 8.
a) Flesh - totally corrupt
b) Soul - Mind (here's a clue - this is where the decisions going forward will be made. A restoration of the situation Adam had - remember earlier - he didnt HAVE TO sin. He could choose not to. This is Free Will restored)
c) Spirit - Totally incorruptible. The God nature that is birthed within you once you accept Christ and are born again.

Now read chapter 8 in the context of what your SOUL (Mind) chooses. Take it step by step.
1) Ch8 v5 - For those who live according to the flesh SET THEIR MINDS on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. ---- do you see this? You choose what you set your mind to. After you become a believer (clearly) because an unbeliever doesn't have the Spirit. So clearly this passage of scripture can only be referring to the church/believers. And its saying there are CHOICES to be made daily.
2) Verse 9-13. Only a believer who has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within them can defeat the flesh on a daily walk (pick up your cross daily). Without the Spirit of Christ, the flesh rules. With the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit rules.

So can this be done? Can we take the bible at its word? Is it possible to this stop sinning? The bible says this is possible by the Spirit, and with YOUR PART. Co-operation with God. Setting your MIND on the things of the Spirit and not of the flesh. If you are not going to get with the program, don't for one second think you are going to get shoved into heaven.

God did His part already on the cross. Your part is cooperating with the plan.

Nice.....now explain why JOHN, the disciple whom Jesus LOVED, who wrote almost 20% of the New Testament writes...

IF we say we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Aahh, well thanks for clarifying. That one typo could have sent the whole forum into a tizzy.. lol

Um, no I didn't say that sin doesn't exist today. It very much does. But Jesus paid that price when he was crucified. Now whether people choose to except that is up to them.

sorry about that other thing it was a typo. I meant sin had not been defeated in the OT times. Today sin has been defeated.

 

[BillG]

Hmmmm.....I think sin does have power over us. Take a baby for example, you don't have to teach that child to disobey(sin) but rather obey. "For we know that the old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might no longer be enslaved to sin." Rom 6:6 I think that implies sin has control/power over us.

But the young child will disobey even when you ask them to obey.
You can't teach a young child to know than thier old self was crucified.

Trust me even as a Father of 4 teenagers it don't change.

 

[Chris1975]

Nice.....now explain why JOHN, the disciple whom Jesus LOVED, who wrote almost 20% of the New Testament writes...

IF we say we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US.

Because all have fallen. And all continue to fall. You are quoting 1 John 1 verse 8. Now open up on that section and read the following: 1 John 1 v6.
Then read 1 John 1 v9 and 10.
Then go across to the next chapter 2. Read verse 1-4.

So - look again at your quote on John and see it in its surrounding context.

 

[dcontroversal]

Because all have fallen. And all continue to fall. You are quoting 1 John 1 verse 8. Now open up on that section and read the following: 1 John 1 v6.
Then read 1 John 1 v9 and 10.
Then go across to the next chapter 2. Read verse 1-4.

So - look again at your quote on John and see it in its surrounding context.

I have and it does not change what John said.......

 

[Angela_grace]

But the young child will disobey even when you ask them to obey.
You can't teach a young child to know than thier old self was crucified.

Trust me even as a Father of 4 teenagers it don't change.

Yeah, so sin has power over them.... agreed???