Are we justified by works?

[mailmandan]

A man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH ALONE.

And a genuine saving faith will bear fruit

Man is justified/accounted as righteous by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Paul). Man is justified/shown to be righteous by works (James). Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are simply describing saving faith from two different perspectives.

Question: What looks like a square and a triangle at the same time?
Quick wrong answer: Nothing, because such a thing is impossible!
Thoughtful correct answer: A pyramid! Viewed from the side--from ground level--it looks like a triangle. Viewed from above--from the air--it looks like a square.

The illustration above helps us to better understand the statements of Paul and James. When James and Paul write about saving faith, they're not contradicting each other--they are just looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking at faith from above--from the divine perspective. God knows the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results.

James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the ground level--from the human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who claims to have faith. True faith will prove its profession by good works. It may appear on the surface that Paul and James contradict each other. But if, from God's perspective, faith apart from works saves, but, from man's perspective, that faith results in good works which people can see, then there is bound to be a "perspective difference" in the description of saving faith.

 

[Issachar92]

My take is, if you claim to be IN CHRIST yet you're life is not changing at all, then its dead faith that cant save just like James says.

So it aint like you gotta do some religious ceremonies to "maintain" your salvation or to get saved.
But its also not that you simply believe that Jesus exists and bam your in, because the book of Acts and the epistles and JESUS HIMSELF is very clear on REPENTANCE.
We can see the state of many churches when repentance is not preached, its complete devastation.

All the apostles had a changed life as proof of their faith.

If you want to see the definition of what true faith is read Hebrews 11 it lists multiple examples.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you see the link between the goats and the tares which are burnt up? Or not?

You have yet to show where the wheat turns into tares. Matt 13:38 explains exactly who are the tares and who are the good seed.


Matthew 13:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

How are the goats judged differently from the sheep? Clue - its in the passage above.

Where does Scripture tell us the wheat turns into tears? Clue - it doesn’t.

 

[FranC]

Man is justified/accounted as righteous by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Paul). Man is justified/shown to be righteous by works (James). Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are simply describing saving faith from two different perspectives.

Question: What looks like a square and a triangle at the same time?
Quick wrong answer: Nothing, because such a thing is impossible!
Thoughtful correct answer: A pyramid! Viewed from the side--from ground level--it looks like a triangle. Viewed from above--from the air--it looks like a square.

The illustration above helps us to better understand the statements of Paul and James. When James and Paul write about saving faith, they're not contradicting each other--they are just looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking at faith from above--from the divine perspective. God knows the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results.

James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the ground level--from the human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who claims to have faith. True faith will prove its profession by good works. It may appear on the surface that Paul and James contradict each other. But if, from God's perspective, faith apart from works saves, but, from man's perspective, that faith results in good works which people can see, then there is bound to be a "perspective difference" in the description of saving faith.

Hi MMD

I've never seen a conflict between Jesus and Paul, or Paul and James, or our perspective and God's perspective from above.

If a person continues on in Romans after the first chapters, he comes to chapters 12, 13 and 14.
These speak about how a Christian is supposed to BE. Much as how Jesus said and much as how James said.

What I like to say is that in every other religion, we are saved by a DOING
In Christianity we are saved by a BEING

However, that being (Christian) does bring also to doing.
A thin red line as someone said...I think Grace said it.

To me, they all seem to agree. Jesus, Paul and James.

I also think we here all agree. Maybe it's just how we speak that is different.

 

[Chris1975]

You have yet to show where the wheat turns into tares. Matt 13:38 explains exactly who are the tares and who are the good seed.


Matthew 13:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.




Where does Scripture tell us the wheat turns into tears? Clue - it doesn’t.

Yet both the wheat and the tares claim to believe in Jesus.....

 

[BillG]

In Christianity we are saved by a BEING

Aint that the truth,

by being we automatically find ourselves doing

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yet both the wheat and the tares claim to believe in Jesus…..

Right. And in vs 30 Jesus said to let both grow together.


I don’t know why believers are so shocked at unbelievers sitting in our churches. Jesus told us that this would be the case.

 

[Desertsrose]

Man is justified/accounted as righteous by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Paul). Man is justified/shown to be righteous by works (James). Paul and James do not contradict each other. They are simply describing saving faith from two different perspectives.

Question: What looks like a square and a triangle at the same time?
Quick wrong answer: Nothing, because such a thing is impossible!
Thoughtful correct answer: A pyramid! Viewed from the side--from ground level--it looks like a triangle. Viewed from above--from the air--it looks like a square.

The illustration above helps us to better understand the statements of Paul and James. When James and Paul write about saving faith, they're not contradicting each other--they are just looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking at faith from above--from the divine perspective. God knows the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results.

James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the ground level--from the human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who claims to have faith. True faith will prove its profession by good works. It may appear on the surface that Paul and James contradict each other. But if, from God's perspective, faith apart from works saves, but, from man's perspective, that faith results in good works which people can see, then there is bound to be a "perspective difference" in the description of saving faith.

I like what you've written about the different perspectives. Kudos for that! I think though from God's point of view also, those who are saved apart from works will obey.

Because He's God, he sees it before it happens. Because we're not God, but man ~ we don't know man's heart and only see Christ's life in a person by their obedience.

 

[mailmandan]

My take is, if you claim to be IN CHRIST yet you're life is not changing at all, then its dead faith that cant save just like James says.

So it aint like you gotta do some religious ceremonies to "maintain" your salvation or to get saved.
But its also not that you simply believe that Jesus exists and bam your in, because the book of Acts and the epistles and JESUS HIMSELF is very clear on REPENTANCE.
We can see the state of many churches when repentance is not preached, its complete devastation.

All the apostles had a changed life as proof of their faith.

If you want to see the definition of what true faith is read Hebrews 11 it lists multiple examples.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ (Acts 20:21) and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, what you change your mind about and faith in Christ is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind. *Repentance and faith are two sides of the same experience of receiving Christ.

The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Repentance does not merely mean to feel sorry about our sins or completely stop sinning either.

In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurences that it was "by" or "out of" faith and not faith is in essence, these works. Their faith was genuine and it was proved by their actions (works). So yes, all of these things in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but none of these works are the essence of faith, but are the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved by faith at it's origin, not at some time later. We show our faith by our works and the absence of evidence (of works) could be construed as evidence of absence (of faith).

 

[FranC]

Thats what I think



Maybe I am reading the above quote wrong but it seems to be saying that we are declared righteous by our works.

You're reading correctly Bill.
This goes back to what I was saying before - about how sometimes the two terms are interchanged in the letters.
After the theology of this was decided upon, we could safely say that the above term should not be JUSTIFIED, but SANCTIFIED. (since sancification does require our works also).

 

[BillG]

Right. And in vs 30 Jesus said to let both grow together.


I don’t know why believers are so shocked at unbelievers sitting in our churches. Jesus told us that this would be the case.

Tares closely resemble wheat, but are poisonous to human beings. They are indistinguishable from wheat until the final fruit appears. Farmers would weed out tares just before the wheat harvest. Until Christ returns, both genuine believers and counterfeits will be allowed to remain together.

I think also we need to look at the preceeding verses

Matthew 13:27-29
So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

Wheat and tares in appearance are almost indistinguishable.

I think Jesus is saying that we can't tell in truth what is wheat and what is tares. That's why we need to leave it up to the one who knows.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

 

[mailmandan]

If you want to see the definition of what true faith is read Hebrews 11 it lists multiple examples.

I think it's important to point out that faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). As we read on in Hebrews 11, we see faith in action (works). We need to be careful to make a distinction between faith and works, otherwise, we can end up simply defining faith as works, then salvation through faith ends up becoming salvation by works. I dealt with that confusion while growing up in the Roman Catholic church.

 

[FranC]

Yet both the wheat and the tares claim to believe in Jesus.....

How do the tares claim to believe in Jesus?
They are sown by the devil and are HIS children.

 

[dcontroversal]

I think it's important to point out that faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). As we read on in Hebrews 11, we see faith in action (works). We need to be careful to make a distinction between faith and works, otherwise, we can end up simply defining faith as works, then salvation through faith ends up becoming salvation by works. I dealt with that confusion while growing up in the Roman Catholic church.

As are numerous "workers for" on this site.....they claim Jesus but trust in their own works and self........a blend that will not make the final cut......Galatians 1 and 3.......


Plenteous in number will come before the throne boasting in their works and claiming to know JESUS....you would think this one verse would open the eyes of ALL who push and boast of works as a part of the equation.

 

[FranC]

I think it's important to point out that faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). As we read on in Hebrews 11, we see faith in action (works). We need to be careful to make a distinction between faith and works, otherwise, we can end up simply defining faith as works, then salvation through faith ends up becoming salvation by works. I dealt with that confusion while growing up in the Roman Catholic church.

I also am not Catholic anymore but live here so I know that they don't teach this anymore.
They now teach that we must know Jesus and believe in Him.
But the older folk don't really understand it well, and the younger folk don't go to church anymore...

 

[MattforJesus]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is nothing we can do to inherit eternal life,and our works would never measure up to the standard of God,so all we can do it have faith.

When we confess Christ we are in the flesh,and all we can do is have faith alone.

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If a person does not want to sin,and hates sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

When we receive the Holy Spirit then we have to do works of the Spirit to have faith active in our life,for if we do not wanting to be fleshy,then we are not justified in our walk with God.

If we do not do the works of the Spirit then we are rebellious,and not in the proper relationship with God.

 

[mailmandan]

I also am not Catholic anymore but live here so I know that they don't teach this anymore.
They now teach that we must know Jesus and believe in Him.
But the older folk don't really understand it well, and the younger folk don't go to church anymore...

Not the last time I checked. Official Roman Catholic doctrine has not changed. Most of my family still attends the Roman Catholic church and they are still clinging to the same gospel of works that they have always clinged to from the beginning.

 

[Chris1975]

Tares closely resemble wheat, but are poisonous to human beings. They are indistinguishable from wheat until the final fruit appears. Farmers would weed out tares just before the wheat harvest. Until Christ returns, both genuine believers and counterfeits will be allowed to remain together.

”

Good. Now let me ask you. Do you think there are tares who "think" they are wheat?
Or put in another way, is it possible for someone to be deceived?

 

[Chris1975]

How do the tares claim to believe in Jesus?
They are sown by the devil and are HIS children.

They are in the pulpit. They are in the pews. They sing "hallelujah". Jesus says "They worship me with their lips but their heart is far from me" para

 

[Chris1975]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is nothing we can do to inherit eternal life,and our works would never measure up to the standard of God,so all we can do it have faith.

When we confess Christ we are in the flesh,and all we can do is have faith alone.

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If a person does not want to sin,and hates sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

When we receive the Holy Spirit then we have to do works of the Spirit to have faith active in our life,for if we do not wanting to be fleshy,then we are not justified in our walk with God.

If we do not do the works of the Spirit then we are rebellious,and not in the proper relationship with God.

^^^ this is an excellent compilation.