Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[gb9]

lol. You know the whole point is which side of the fence you are on.
So you like Prince, Benny Hinn, Hagin etc. Well I know which school you
come from. And it is no shock you think I am wrong, I would be surprised
if it was otherwise. So why do you think I would be insulted, I am complemented,
not to be put alongside these false teachers. It just gets better the more you share,
thank you and God bless, Halleluyah, Amen.

wow, so you know which pastors I like. so, what is my favorite ice cream?? what is my favorite colored shirt?? hahaha!!

peter, just when I think that the self-righteous arrogance you [parade, while talking about how pure , holy, and righteousnyu are ( not ), just when I think you could not out-do yourself, you do.

and I dis-agree with you because you are wrong. one does not have to work to stay saved, one does good works because they ARE saved. and future sin is forgiven and..... well, I don't have 5 more hours to correct you.

 

[mailmandan]

In context we can see that Jude is not describing believers here - he is describing those that are devoid of the Spirit. Believers have the Holy Spirit forever in them - Jesus said. John 14:16

These are "hidden reefs" in amongst us - but they are not "Of" us.

Jude 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;


Jude 1:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]18 [/SUP] that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

[SUP]19 [/SUP] These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Amen! Jude did not say that these certain men who have have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ were "once alive" then lost their salvation. That argument is based on faulty human logic. A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NAS says "doubly dead."

*Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

*Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) *In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

 

[Chris1975]

How about the second death of Rev 21:8?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


It's not the Second Death mentioned in Rev 21v8. So not yet the lake of fire. This happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (see Rev 20v11-15).

 

[fredoheaven]

Lets look at the below verse CAREFULLY.

1 Timothy 4New King James Version (NKJV)

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,


a) They were in the faith
b) Those "in the faith" are saved/justified
c) Then they gave heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines
d) Then they depart from the faith.
e) Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith it is impossible to be saved.

Here is an example of people (real people, because it will happen in the latter days, and God says so) - who lose their salvation.

Now read Hebrews 6v4-6 again.

I read the verse quoted above many times, I asked:

Did the verse really says anything on your a? b? c? d? e?

Thanks

 

[Chris1975]

Very true, Hebrews 6 should not be complicated, "For it is impossible...to renew them again to repentance...," I think this could be a very proof text for security of the believers and not losing salvation. The passage put us into an "if" situation but as the writer of the Hebrews says, he knew beforehand that this would be impossible to renew unto repentance even to the point of "falling away" as some unbelieving who entered in and apostatized.

God bless

It doesn't say its impossible for them to fall away.
It says that if they fall away, its impossible to renew them unto repentance.

By deduction, falling away is possible. Renewing to repentance after falling away is impossible.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It's not the Second Death mentioned in Rev 21v8. So not yet the lake of fire. This happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (see Rev 20v11-15).

Look at the verses just before vs 12:

Jude 1:

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


You can believe what you want about your ability to keep yourself from falling.


I will believe what God says in Jude 1:24-25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


God is able to keep me from falling. And He will present me faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

 

[Chris1975]

I read the verse quoted above many times, I asked:

Did the verse really says anything on your a? b? c? d? e?

Thanks

I can't make you see.

 

[fredoheaven]

Let's look at the scripture again together:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


So at this point (feasting with you), they are not physically dead. So twice dead means (Death in Adam / Rebirth in Christ / Rejection of Christ (twice dead))

Thank you but you have to remember that the passage is referring to those “for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever” so this is not in reference to the believers (saved).

It is easy to spot unbelieving ones (unsaved) even when they intermixed with believers.

 

[Chris1975]

Look at the verses just before vs 12:

Jude 1:

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


You can believe what you want about your ability to keep yourself from falling. <what are you talking about. when did I say this?>

I will believe what God says in Jude 1:24-25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. <Amen>


God is able to keep me from falling. And He will present me faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. <Amen. May it be so for you and me.>

I don't think you are following the point I am making. The OP is about the apostasy within the church and the possibility of falling away from Christ. This has been proven by multiple scriptures. The bible says so. You may refuse to believe it. But its true. Now is God able to keep you from falling? Yes. Will God forcibly keep you from falling away, if its your desire to fall away? Please answer this Y/N?

 

[Chris1975]

Thank you but you have to remember that the passage is referring to those “for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever” so this is not in reference to the believers (saved).

It is easy to spot unbelieving ones (unsaved) even when they intermixed with believers.

They were believers at one point. Now they are twice dead. And still amongst the believers.

 

[fredoheaven]

I can't make you see.

Umm, of course you can't. They are not what the bible says.

God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

They were believers at one point. Now they are twice dead. And still amongst the believers.

You should have well study the context. Reneweddaybyday has provided you.

Thanks

 

[Chris1975]

You should have well study the context. Reneweddaybyday has provided you.

Thanks

Well lets post the whole book of Jude. Because the context was too limited to start off with. Lets look at it together:

[h=1]JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Greeting to the Called[/h][SUP]1 [/SUP]Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified[SUP][a][/SUP] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

[h=3]Contend for the Faith[/h][SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith (why content for the faith if you cant lose it?) which was once for all delivered to the saints. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ. <turning the grace of our God as a license to commit immorality>

[h=3]Old and New Apostates[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (see the pattern) [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (see the pattern) [SUP]7 [/SUP]as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (see the pattern)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Likewise also (connecting verse: examples before to what we are about to see follow) these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” [SUP]10 [/SUP]But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

[h=3]Apostates Depraved and Doomed[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (see the pattern)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [SUP]15 [/SUP]to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

[h=3]Apostates Predicted[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]18 [/SUP]how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. [SUP]19 [/SUP]These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

[h=3]Maintain Your Life with God[/h][SUP]20 [/SUP]But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]21 [/SUP]keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]23 [/SUP]but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[SUP][e][/SUP] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

[h=3]Glory to God[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]Now to Him who is able to keep you[SUP][f][/SUP] from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]To God our Savior,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Who alone is wise,[SUP][h][/SUP]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[SUP][i][/SUP]
Both now and forever.
Amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

All talking about unbelievers in Jude ( see the pattern) - unbelievers are not born-again and sealed with the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said will be in you forever. John 14:16 . I don't think Jesus has started to take up lying to us. We are called "believers' for a reason.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I don't think you are following the point I am making. The OP is about the apostasy within the church and the possibility of falling away from Christ.

No. The OP is about whether a believer, after he/she is saved, can be "unsaved":

So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!!

Now is God able to keep you from falling? Yes. Will God forcibly keep you from falling away, if its your desire to fall away? Please answer this Y/N?

I believe that when I was saved, I was born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).

Incorruptible = aphthartou which means uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable.

I do not believe a born again believer can fall away to the point you describe in the pages of this thread.

 

[Bladerunner]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Yes, Katy but it is for the true Believers. If one looks at the Exodus and the way some of the people strayed by building a golden calf. The result was not loss of their salvation but loss of their Blessings. They had to wonder in the wilderness for 38 years.

If there is any doubt as to the veracity of the Israel people being true believers ck out Exodus 15:31,,, It is the same but a plural to the Singular verb in Genesis 15:6


The real question on whether you can lose your salvation is arguable but only in the context of being a TRUE believer or NOT. In Galations 5: 1-5 we see that if one excercises the 'other gospel' God's grace can be removed. Some would say that the person who turns was never a True Believer.

This is much like the Preterist (partial or full) who have said they were once Pre-trib believers. Something happened and they switched... Is this a case of the "other Gospel' or the case of Not being a True Believer in the beginning.

To be fair, one could say those who believe in the pre-trib are the unbelievers!? Right??? Wrong..Why because as we read the scripture we apply it as it literally, which includes using the structure of sentences, their meaning, symbols, like , as, and over 200 more such participles of speech. All of these are used in the Bible which as you know was written by the greatest writer there was, is and will be. OH, I almost forgot,,, I and other believers of the Pre-trib theology do not have to change our hermeneutics to fit out lifestyle.

One other point... The Covenant that God made with Abram (Abraham) is still in effect. As God tells us the Sun, the Moon and the Heaven will fall before he tears up that contract. If I were to be preterist, replacement Theology, emergent church theology, Hyper-what-ever, I would be worried.......From past experiences that are shown in the Bible, God curses have resulted in terrible consequences.

 

[Chris1975]

All talking about unbelievers in Jude ( see the pattern) - unbelievers are not born-again and sealed with the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said will be in you forever. John 14:16 . I don't think Jesus has started to take up lying to us. We are called "believers' for a reason.

Not unbelievers. It says they are twice dead.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[f]


24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Basically as in verses 20 and 21 remain in faith which keeps you in Gods love.

Remaining in full surrender to God and reliance on God, God is able to keep this kind of disciple from falling. As we wait for the very mercy of God he has prepared for us.

 

[Grace777x70]

No. The OP is about whether a believer, after he/she is saved, can be "unsaved":







I believe that when I was saved, I was born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).

Incorruptible = aphthartou which means uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable.

I do not believe a born again believer can fall away to the point you describe in the pages of this thread.

I agree. This Pentecostal doctrine that believers lose their salvation in one of the worst demonically inspired doctrines ever put into the unrenewed minds of man by the enemy.

It has done more harm to the body of Christ then can be imagined. I have heard 2 dr's talk about the number of Christians in mental institutions because of this religious belief.

It is graceless and loveless and it totally contradicts the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. It is against the very nature and character of God. It makes salvation based on us when Jesus Himself is the Savior by His finished work on the cross and resurrection. We do not save ourselves.

A drowning man needs a Savior - not 5 lessons on how to swim and if you don't do these 5 lessons and hold out until you get to shore - you are going to drown.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

(why content for the faith if you cant lose it?)

Because some have not yet come to faith (and some are new believers).

Believers who speak out against those described in vs 4 help the new believers and those who have yet to come to faith.