TRIBULATION LIE

[GaryA]

What makes you think that the "last trumpet" that Paul mentions in 1 Cor.15:52 has to be the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments?

"common sense"

( Along with a close examination of the details of the passages in the scriptures that deal with the subject, of course... )

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are obviously set in your way of thinking

Again, you're not understanding! This is not my thinking, but is from cross referencing and comparing scripture that my conclusions are based on.

An example is suffering wrath. I pointed out the distinct difference between the concept of suffering, being the target of wrath and being present when the wrath happens. If a person was beaten up and you were present at the scene who would be the object of the beating the person being beaten or yourself?

How is the above an example? The entire earth, everyone who is on it, will be exposed to God's wrath. The church cannot be here because of the severity of those plagues of wrath and because Jesus already suffered the wrath that all believers deserve! The church is not going to be here on earth observing everyone else suffering God's wrath, while we are protected. This is why I keep telling you, we can't be here because of the severity of God's wrath. It will affect the entire earth, everyone on it. Therefore, your example is not valid because the person who was also at the scene would also be the one being beat up.

I gave the examples of Egypt and Daniel.

The plagues of Egypt would be considered a pick nick in comparison to the wrath of God that is coming. For Egypt was the only location that was suffering. The plagues of wrath that are coming will affect the entire world and no one will be exempt.

How do I know that the seventh trumpet is the last in Revelation? Because apart from the above I can count. Each Trumpet is numbered. The numbers stop at seven. So by my power of deduction I consider that to be the last.

The problem is that you have just deemed that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 simply because the word "trumpet" is used. The reason why I keep bringing up the wrath of God is because, in order for the church to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, they would have to go through the majority of God's wrath, which you are not taking into consideration in your exegesis.

You claim that the only people who are exempt from the plague of wrath as you call it are the 144000. They receive a seal of gods protection in Revelation 7 but in the same chapter it goes on to say that there are a multitude that no man can number from every nation, tribe, people and tongue dressed in white standing before the throne. John is told they come out of the great tribulation. In order to COME OUT OF IT YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT.

First of all, scripture states that the 144,000 are exempt from the 5th trumpet. Below is the proof of that:

"Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand from all the tribes of Israel:"

"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

So, in the first verse the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads. Then, in the second verse, we see that only those with the seal of God on their foreheads are exempt from this 5th trumpet plague. For only the 144,000 are those who will be sealed during the time of God's wrath.

but in the same chapter it goes on to say that there are a multitude that no man can number from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue dressed in white standing before the throne. John is told they come out of the great tribulation. In order to COME OUT OF IT YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT.

In Revelation 7 there are two separate groups introduced, neither of which are the church: The 144,000 which are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The next group which in number, no man can count, are Gentile believers, for they come from every nation, tribe, people and language, ergo, Gentiles.

These 144,000 and those in white robes that no man can count which are Gentiles, are two completely separate groups.

As you yourself pointed out, the second group are those saints who come out of the great tribulation, ergo, great tribulation saints. Your on-going error is confusing the great tribulation saints as being the church, which they are not. As I have continued to teach, you will not find the church mentioned anywhere after the end of chapter 3.

From chapter 1 thru 3, only the church is referred to and the word saints is never used within those same chapters. From chapter 4 onward, the word church is missing and only the word saints is used. God is making a distinction here between the church and the great tribulation saints.

Therefore, those who "come out of the great tribulation" are not the church, but the great tribulation saints who will become believers after the church has been gathered.

I reiterate, the 144,000 and those in white robes which no man can count (great tribulation saints), are two separate groups. It is the great tribulation saints who come out of the great tribulation and not the church. You will not find the church mentioned anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath.

It says in Rev 14 9-11 that the only only people who are subject to the wrath of God are those who accept the mark of the beast. This great multitude obviously refused it

Then you must have missed what was said regarding the great tribulation saints in Rev.7 regarding their being exposed to God's wrath:

"‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat."

They will never hunger again:
The reference to the great tribulation saints that they will "never hunger again" is in reference to the 3rd seal plague of famine.

They will never thirst again:
This in reference to the 3rd trumpet where a third of the rivers and springs of water are turned to wormwood where many will die from drinking it. In addition to this, at the 2nd and 3rd bowls the sea and all of the rivers and fresh water are turned into literal blood, ergo, the reference to them never thirsting again.

The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat:
The above is in reference to the 4th bowl judgment where the angel pours his bowl out upon the sun and the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. This demonstrates that the great tribulation saints will be exposed to this plague of wrath as well

Since we can see from the scriptures above that the great tribulation saints are shown to have suffered from being exposed to God's wrath, I don't how you can claim that God's wrath will be only upon those who worship the beast and accept his mark.

The major purpose of the time period following the gathering of the church, is for God to pour out his wrath upon all who are upon the earth. For those who survive each plague of wrath, it is to get them to repent and worship God.

My advice is the same, you need to take all of the exegetical information and apply it. currently, you are omitting pertinent information regarding end-time events, which is necessary to come to a right conclusion.

The entire planet and all of its inhabitants will be affected by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[GaryA]

If your interpretation was correct, there would hardly be any living believers to be changed and caught up.

What makes you think that there should be more than that? Where in scripture does it say that there will be A LOT of living believers remaining - to be resurrected and caught up?

Does it say? :


1 Thessalonians 4:

[SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain ( and, there will be many of us ) unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain ( and, there will be many of us ) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Or, does it just say? :


1 Thessalonians 4:

[SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


See? There is one little detail right there that you have "made up" in your mind - that is not supported in scripture.

"I say to you that it is the truth that there are many more of these 'little' details that you have 'decided' without having scripture to back it up..."

( And, they have collectively combined to create error that is anything but 'little'... )

I honestly think that you do not even realize the [ subconscious ] "hoop-jumping" you go through to maintain your eschatological views.

 

[Ahwatukee]

"common sense"

( Along with a close examination of the details of the passages in the scriptures that deal with the subject, of course... )

No! This is not common sense, but shoddy, incomplete exegesis! What it is, is jumping to the conclusion that because the word "trumpet" is used in both scriptures that they must be referring to the same trumpet. You come to this conclusion, while ignoring the fact that if the 7th trumpet was the "last trumpet" referred to in 1 Cor.15:52, it would put the church through the majority of God's wrath of which I have quoted so many times, that the church is not appointed to suffer. In addition, there I nothing in the context in or around the 7th trumpet that would infer the church being gathered.

* The last trumpet: The churches blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to gather His church

* The 7th Trumpet: A plague of wrath poured out upon the inhabitants of the earth.

These two trumpets are not the same.

The last trumpet is a blessing, where the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What makes you think that there should be more than that? Where in scripture does it say that there will be A LOT of living believers remaining - to be resurrected and caught up?

Simple! Just with the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, approximately 50% of the earths population will have been killed and that is not counting the fatalities of trumpets 1,2 or 3 nor of the fatalities from bowl judgments.

The blessed hope, the gathering of the church, is a promise from the Lord and is a big event. The Lord is not going to kill off the majority of the church through His wrath and then gather what is left. In fact, the church will not go through any wrath at all. When the resurrection takes place, all of those still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. If you have the church going through the majority of God's wrath, many of them would be killed and that as a result of God's wrath. But as I continue to point out, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, Jesus rescues us from God's wrath and the Lord said that he would keep the church out of the time of His wrath. Yet by your claim that the 7th trumpet is synonymous with the last trumpet, you put the living church through all of the seals and trumpet judgments, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Those who believe in Christ have been reconciled to God and have been credited with righteousness. The wrath that all believers deserve was placed on Christ, satisfying it completely. Yet you people, in your claim, continue to send the church through the time of God's wrath and thereby ignore the fact that Jesus experienced God's wrath on our behalf. God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son, but you ignore that.

God does not require double payments, which is what would be happening if the church were to go through God's wrath. You have Jesus experiencing God's wrath and also have the believer experiencing it again, as though Christ experienced nothing.

 

[GaryA]

"First resurrection" does not mean "only resurrection." { correct }

There are stages to the first resurrection: { nope }

Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection { not exactly }

The church at his appearing { yes - at the Second Coming of Christ }

The 144,000/male child { why do you even think the 144,000 are resurrected? ( receive glorified bodies ) In my view, they are the seed for the 1000-year reign of Christ. They are the ones who go into the millenium "unchanged"; they will be as we are today. }

The two witnesses { At the time they are raised from the dead, we don't know for sure that they are resurrected. Chances are - they are not - at that time. But, even if they are, they are a "special case" ( like Jesus, Who is also ) - and, are not considered to be part of the "first resurrection" ( see below ). }

The Great Tribulation saints { yes - along with everyone else [ who are resurrected ] at the Second Coming of Christ }

All of these stages take place at different times, but all fall under the banner of first resurrection. { No. } Jesus initiated the first resurrection and it is still in operation and we're next! { No. }

1 Corinthians 15:

[SUP]20[/SUP] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. [SUP]21[/SUP] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22[/SUP] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [SUP]23[/SUP] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Christ is the 'firstfruits' of all who will be resurrected from the dead. The intent and meaning of the phrase "first resurrection" is one that indicates "the first [ general ] resurrection" -- the resurrection of Christ is not considered part of it.

The word 'firstfruits' is being used in a much broader sense than you are realizing - in reference and regard to the inclusion of all resurrections.

Please notice also -- that the "next" resurrected 'group' will be those who - "afterward" ( after Christ ) - "are Christ's at his coming"...

This is referring to the Second Coming of Christ.

Or - are you going to now admit that the 'pre-trib' "coming" of Jesus is actually considered to be a "coming" of Christ?

So - which is it? Is this verse ( 23, above ) referring to a 'pre-trib' "coming" of Christ ( which would most definitely be considered "a coming of Christ" - i.e. - you cannot say that this was not a "coming" of Christ because His feet did not touch the ground ) or a 'post-trib' Second Coming of Christ?

Which is it?

 

[GaryA]

You and others don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

Sure we do. It is you who does not realize that [ all of ] the seals, trumpets, and vials [ collectively ] do not comprise the 'Wrath of God' as it is defined in the Bible. Nor do you realize that the 'Great Tribulation' is not the 'Wrath of God'.

The church could not be present and not be affected by these coming plagues of wrath.

So -- you are saying that - the church - having been resurrected - having "glorifed" bodies - cannot be harmed by anything whatsoever - and also "in the air" and not "on the Earth" -- cannot possibly "escape" being "affected" by all that is transpiring on the Earth below them?????

Sure - they will "see" it. But then, they will most likely see people thrown into the lake of fire on Judgment Day, too!

Why can you not understand that God is able to protect us and to prevent such things from "affecting" us?

This is the day of the Lord that the prophets spoke of.

Yes! And, they spoke of a single event - which is the Second Coming of Christ - wherein, all of things they spoke of would occur - in their proper order - at [ the singular event which is ] the Second Coming of Christ.

I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and I know what I am talking about.

"I'm sorry, friend, but - you only think you know what you are talking about."

You are "well-rehearsed" in the 'pre-trib' doctrine. Of that, I have no doubt whatsoever. But - that does not automatically mean that you are correct in your interpretations...

..., when these coming plagues are going to be world-wide and much, much more severe.

And, not all of those plagues are part of the 'Wrath of God'. You need to have a better understanding of the difference between 'Judgment' and 'Wrath'.

 

[GaryA]

My advice to you, is to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the scripture that refer to "the day of the Lord" and then ask yourself the question, is it more logical for the Lord to gather his church prior to those events of wrath or to send those, who have been reconciled to God through faith and have been credited with righteousness, to send them through those events of wrath? And for what purpose? Who do scripture's say that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is directed at? Below are some random examples:

At the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. What is not said within the 1st trumpet is how many fatalities will result? You can't have a third of the earth and trees being burned up without there being many fatalities.

At the 5th trumpet, an angel comes down and unlocks the Abyss, letting out those demonic beings who are told to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the stings like that of a scorpion. Regarding this, scripture states that the only ones exempt from this plague will be the 144,000, which means that if the church were here on the earth, they too would suffer from this plague of wrath. To say that they would be protected would be by pure conjecture. Even the great tribulation saints are exposed to God's wrath.

At the 6th trumpet, four bound angels (fallen) are released and gather a demonic army of 200 million for the purpose of killing a third of whatever is left of the inhabitants of the earth by fire, smoke and sulfur. Are you getting the picture here? We have a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth killed at the 4th seal, then we have a third of the inhabitants who are left killed and that doesn't include the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments.

At the 4th bowl judgment, the angel pours his bowl out on the sun, the result being that the inhabitants of the earth are scorched with intense heat from the sun. God would literally have to put each individual believer under a force field to protect them from this plague of wrath.

I really wish that you and others could see what God has revealed to me all of these years regarding end-time events. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I continue to contend for the truth regarding these matters.

Before the time of your first example, virtually all Christians will have been beheaded - during the 'Great Tribulation' - which I believe the Bible indicates will end before the 'trumpet' events begin to occur. The 144,000 will be [ literally, virtually, or essentially ] all who are left...

My advice to you is -- keep studying until you realize that the 'pre-trib' doctrine has led you astray from the truth. Only, you are going to have to be willing to "give it up" in exchange for the truth. You cannot have both.

 

[GaryA]

Did you not read Matt 24:42.."Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”

Have you never read:

1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]4[/SUP] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


The verse you quoted tells us to watch. The verse I quoted tells us that we can know what events must occur before His coming.

We still do not know what hour He will come. However, we can know what will occur before He comes - which helps us in our "watching" all-the-more-better.

 

[PlainWord]

No! This is not common sense, but shoddy, incomplete exegesis! What it is, is jumping to the conclusion that because the word "trumpet" is used in both scriptures that they must be referring to the same trumpet. You come to this conclusion, while ignoring the fact that if the 7th trumpet was the "last trumpet" referred to in 1 Cor.15:52, it would put the church through the majority of God's wrath of which I have quoted so many times, that the church is not appointed to suffer. In addition, there I nothing in the context in or around the 7th trumpet that would infer the church being gathered.

* The last trumpet: The churches blessed hope, the appearing of our Lord to gather His church

* The 7th Trumpet: A plague of wrath poured out upon the inhabitants of the earth.

These two trumpets are not the same.

The last trumpet is a blessing, where the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath.

Please see below passage:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, [SUP]4 [/SUP]so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who was Paul writing to? Those currently suffering in Thessalonica back in their days and times or some future church that didn't exist at the time some thousands of years later? Seems like Paul is speaking directly to them, comforting them and telling them that Christ will be revealed from Heaven and give them rest and take vengeance on their enemies.

 

[PlainWord]

So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Seems like Josephus is recording the below event in the above:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just where did Jesus gather them and what happened after is unclear.

 

[GaryA]

... are not really looking,,

Define "really looking"...

ARE YOU?

If you are looking forward to spending time with your wife on your anniversary next month -- yet, you know that you will have to work many days "before the big day arrives" -- and, you know that you will also have to go through a painful surgical procedure before that day --- are you still looking forward to that day? Are you capable of looking beyond the things which must occur before that day - looking forward all-the-while to the wonderful time you will have on that day?

Why can't [ some? ] 'pre-trib' folks understand this concept?????

you keep saying that he is not coming back to get the Church (Rapture) allowing God to turn his attention to Israel (another Big big strike against).

Who? Me? When did I ever say that?

He is most definitely coming back to get His Bride and set up His Kingdom [ on Earth ] - at the [ 'post-trib' ] Second Coming of Christ.

God will "turn His attention to Israel" at the time of the Two Witnesses - and, afterward, as He begins His 1000-year reign [ on earth ].

Let me ask you a question so that I understand exactly WHY you think Rev. is not relevant to the end times.

I never said that, either.

Revelation is very relevant. However, some of it is history already... ( The rest of it is future. )

 

[GaryA]

A 2,000+ year great tribulation? Really?

Yes - really.

In Mat 24:29-31 we see signs in the sky of pending doom coming to the Temple and people before the Romans broke through.

If, by "signs in the sky", you mean the "signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars" -- then - well - the Bible says those signs occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" - not - "before it even gets started [ good ]"...

When exactly did that tribulation end?

Did the "cosmic signs" occur after that? ( verse 29 )

Did the Second Coming of Christ occur after that? ( verse 30 )

Was there a rapture-type gathering after that? ( verse 31 )

 

[Bladerunner]

Have you never read:

1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]4[/SUP] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


The verse you quoted tells us to watch. The verse I quoted tells us that we can know what events must occur before His coming.

We still do not know what hour He will come. However, we can know what will occur before He comes - which helps us in our "watching" all-the-more-better.

GaryA ....the reason why they are different is they are two different events. As for Mine, represents the Rapture and Yours represent the 2nd coming. As for your verse, we already know more about the second coming that we know about Jesus during his time on earth. As for my verse and the Rapture, He will come and it will be 'as a thief in the middle of the night' meaning --it could be at any time during a 24 hour period but people will not see him.

As in the second coming (parousia) of Christ, Everyone on earth will see Him come out of the Clouds on a White Horse fit to do battle at Armageddon with the armies of the Earth.

 

[GaryA]

Did you not read Matt 24:42.."Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”

Have you never read:

1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]4[/SUP] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


The verse you quoted tells us to watch. The verse I quoted tells us that we can know what events must occur before His coming.

We still do not know what hour He will come. However, we can know what will occur before He comes - which helps us in our "watching" all-the-more-better.

GaryA ....the reason why they are different is they are two different events. As for Mine, represents the Rapture and Yours represent the 2nd coming.

Okay - that helps to clarify your view. To me they are the same 'event'. Thanks.

Let me ask you something. Why do 'pre-trib' folks say a verse like Matthew 24:42 is referring to the 'rapture' ( the "catching up" of saints; and, I agree that - in the context of the passage - this verse is referring to the 'rapture' ) - when the verse uses words like "your Lord doth come" -- yet, very adamantly deny that this is a "coming" of the Lord - because His feet do not touch the ground? The verse implies very explicitly that it is referring to a / the "coming of the Lord" -- does it not?

As in the second coming (parousia) of Christ, Everyone on earth will see Him come out of the Clouds on a White Horse fit to do battle at Armageddon with the armies of the Earth.

Something for you to consider:

Look at Matthew 24:30 (which you quoted a reference of, above, in support of your view):

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice the words 'coming in the clouds of heaven' used together with the words 'with power and great glory'.

Also, notice the words 'and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn'.

Now, look at the next thing you said in your post (which you claim is a different 'event'):



Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The prevailing "pre-trib" view has been, that the 'rapture' [coming-of-Christ] would occur "in secret" with Jesus coming in/with clouds -- and, the 'Second' [coming-of-Christ] would occur very visibly with Jesus coming "with power and great glory" and that "all the tribes of the earth will mourn" when they see Him...

What does Matthew 24:30 say again?

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

(And, we know that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture...)

How is that again?

"... coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - right before (and along with) the rapture...

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Food for thought?

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:7-8 is referring to things occurring in the space of time between 70 A.D. and some point in the future ( only, closer to this end of it ) - and, increasing like the "birth pangs"...

Mostly - our 'recent' history ( decades / centuries )...

 

[PlainWord]

Yes - really.



If, by "signs in the sky", you mean the "signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars" -- then - well - the Bible says those signs occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" - not - "before it even gets started [ good ]"...

When exactly did that tribulation end?

Did the "cosmic signs" occur after that? ( verse 29 )

Did the Second Coming of Christ occur after that? ( verse 30 )

Was there a rapture-type gathering after that? ( verse 31 )

Again, the great tribulation was all the suffering in Jerusalem for 3.5 years before the Romans broke through. The breaking through of the Romans marked the end of the great tribulation. Most of those in Jerusalem were tortured, starved and killed before the Romans broke through. Many of the common people were glad to be liberated and even enslaved just to have a meal.

Verse 29: [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Josephus' description could match the above verse. Chariots and soldiers with armor running around in the clouds isn't something you see every day. The fact that this was observed at the same time that the Roman troops broke through to cause the destruction of the temple and desolation of the city as foretold by Daniel and Jesus seems pretty compelling to me. Jesus promised wrath upon the city and so did John the Baptist. This wrath was the revenge of God (and the Lamb) for them killing the Son of Man.

Verse 30: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...

What is/was the "sign of the Son of Man?" I think it was this:

"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city..." Josephus, WAR of the Jews Book 6, Chapter 5.

The above reminds me of this from Rev 19:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

Not saying Rev 19 is the event of Mat 24:30. Just saying it is eerily similar.

As for the rest of Mat 24:30-31, do you see any mention of a resurrection there? Any changing of the living into glorified bodies, I don't. So why do people link this with 1 Thes 4?

 

[PlainWord]

Mostly - our 'recent' history ( decades / centuries )...

Everything, and I mean everything, foretold in Mat 24:1-14, proceeded the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70. The Abomination of Desolation were the Roman solders as confirmed by Luke. Who or what caused the desolation of Jerusalem? It was either the Roman solders or Titus, take your pick. Why are we ignoring the immediate desolation of 70 AD? Why skip it and go to some future desolation? Doesn't make sense.

Consider this passage:

Matthew 12:32

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

We can tell that the "this age" Jesus referenced ended when Jerusalem was overthrown and the people went into captivity. It was the end of their age. "The age to come" is the age we are in. Has to be!!!

Go back to Mat 24 and the original question: “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The question dealt with the age of their age, the end of Israel. This means Christ indeed came back then. Will He come again, ABSOLUTELY. But in the context of Mat 24, it's over. Think of it, the disciples believed they might see the return of Christ. Everything written was done contemporaneously.

 

[GaryA]

Everything, and I mean everything, foretold in Mat 24:1-14, proceeded the Great Tribulation of AD 66-70.

Nope --- verses 7-14 have their part in post- 70 A.D. history.

 

[Bladerunner]

Okay - that helps to clarify your view. To me they are the same 'event'. Thanks.

Let me ask you something. Why do 'pre-trib' folks say a verse like Matthew 24:42 is referring to the 'rapture' ( the "catching up" of saints; and, I agree that - in the context of the passage - this verse is referring to the 'rapture' ) - when the verse uses words like "your Lord doth come" -- yet, very adamantly deny that this is a "coming" of the Lord - because His feet do not touch the ground? The verse implies very explicitly that it is referring to a / the "coming of the Lord" -- does it not?



Something for you to consider:

"At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thess 4:16); at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thess 3:13). At the Rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The Rapture is a translation/resurrection event; the Second Coming is not. At the Rapture, the Lord takes believers from earth to heaven, to the Father's house (John 14:3). At the Second Coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt 24:30). The rapture is an imminent, signless event that from the human perspective could occur at any moment; whereas, the Second Coming will be preceded by all kinds of signs (Matt 24:1-29). The same event cannot logically be both signless and yet portended by numerous signs. This is contradictory. The best harmonization of these two different events supports a pretribulational rapture (which is signless and could happen at any moment), while the many events taking place during the Tribulation are best understood as signs leading up to the Second Coming."

Excerpts from: An Overview of Pretribulational Argument, Mark Hitchcock
Pre-Trib Research Center -