It would be kind of hard to preach and "pastor" if they are not permitted to speak in church wouldn't it?
Female pastors, ok or not?
- Thread starter Pasque
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It would be kind of hard to preach and "pastor" if they are not permitted to speak in church wouldn't it?
A
Ariel82
Guest
Galatians 3:26-29 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
This is speaking to salvation, not the structure in the Church, read it in context.
Gotta love all the posts in this thread attempting to find a loophole and hypothesize out of the clear teachings of male only pastors.
People don't really believe the Word of God when it doesn't agree with them and rebukes their compromise, the false gospels they embrace, and their sinful practices, and that is a fact. Just read through the thread, you'll see it.
There is no shame to some in their compromising agenda against revealed truth.
People don't really believe the Word of God when it doesn't agree with them and rebukes their compromise, the false gospels they embrace, and their sinful practices, and that is a fact. Just read through the thread, you'll see it.
There is no shame to some in their compromising agenda against revealed truth.
Here's Paul's instruction for husbands and wives. Titus 2:1-8 "But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness.3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled.7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."
Where I Timothy 2:7-15 is talking about the Church, look at the lead into verse 7 for 8's context "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." The word for "saved" does not mean as in salvation, it means "to preserve safe and unharmed", from Mounce ConciseGreek-English Dictionary of the New Testament.
So you are saying that women should be remain quite, in the marriage, there are lots of men/husbands that under love that. In Titus, Paul uses the word husband, here uses man, not her husband. Then in I Timothy 3:1-7 he talks about the desire to be an overseer and that it noble, let's look at it. 3:1-7 "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil."
We see that being an overseer, is for men with the use of he, him and husband of one wife, Paul is clearly talking about men and it's in the context of I Timothy 2:7 which was the lead in to teaching. Let's look at what Paul gives instruction on how to chose an Elder/Overseer, Titus 1:5-9 "This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."
The instruction of chasing Elder and Overseer has He or Him as a qualifier and husband of one wife, not my words, the Words of the Holy Spirit through Paul. Your husband is one blessed husband with your interpretation of I Timothy 2:9-15, but at the same time he would probably like some ideas from you.
Well, I am a woman pastor, and believe me when I say, I tore the Bible apart, studied the Greek, read 50 books on the subject, prayed hard and then came back to what Paul was actually saying to Timothy, etc.
1 Tim. 2:12, the Word "exercise authority" is "authentein" in Greek- αὐθεντεῖν. It is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only once in the Bible. Now, normally the word "exousia" is used for the word "authority." For example, in Matt 28, when Jesus says he has been given "all authority." Or when Paul write to submit to those in authority in Romans 13:1-3, the word is exousia.
Further, in fact, the word translated "exercise/usurp authority" is a non-indicative verb - a present infinitive, to be exact. So, to be truthful to the text of that word, one should translate it "to .... something." And "to... authority" doesn't work. Because "authority" is a noun. So, what some translators have done, is add a verb, an extra word which is not in the text, in order to make it reflect the translators' biases. This is very dishonest in a functional translation, and pretty much all modern versions, and older ones like KJV, have to push this dishonest translation, which has been used to keep women out of ministry for pretty much 400 years. To say nothing of following the man made traditions of the Roman Catholic Church Very sad!
So, because "authentein" is not found anywhere else in the Bible, it cannot be compared with the usage in other uses in the Bible. What has to be done, is compare what the word means in contemporaneous sources. So, in other words, what do texts that use the word around that time say the word is. In fact, there are as many as 50 uses. But the major one seems to be "to domineer." So, here we have an infinitive, a word which Paul is using over "usurping authority" (what a blatant sexist translation, if there ever was one!) So, fitting in "to dominate" and pulling out "exercise authority" we have a very good use of the word in the sentence, which also makes sense in terms of this Pastoral Letter.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to domineer a man; but, to be in quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 Modified ESV
Truly, why would Paul use this word, when he could have just written "to usurp authority," and everyone would have known what he was saying? Why would God lead him in this, of all places, to have a one use word?Probably because he didn't want this private letter to Timothy to be a universal statement. He was addressing the situation in Ephesus, where the priestesses of Artemis were known to be domineering, and were quite probably causing problems in Timothy's church. Paul also adds some doctrine, because in the mystery religions, women were created first. He wanted Timothy to understand the order of creation, so that he could speak to these women, and explain how and why they were wrong, and to get Timothy to stop these women from domineering in the congregation, which they must have being doing. Paul must roll his eyes every time Jesus points out another complementarian or church not allowing a woman pastor, because of this wrong translation.
In fact, I was discussing this with my Greek prof, who is a complimentarian, and he had me read his Word Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles. It was almost 40 pages long. Some attention was paid to the "silent" part, which you will notice above is translated "quiet" which is what it actually means. (Rabbinical students were instructed to "learn in silence." These women were getting the incredible opportunity to learn in silence, which the rabbis had never allowed them to. My prof, also got deeply into the order of creation, from the last part of this passage.
But, in the end, he admits that the entire discussion hinges around the translation of "authentein."He said he decided it means "to exercise authority." He also acknowledged other scholars disagreed with him. Well, I'm not in the realm of the scholarship of the type of people he was speaking about, but still, having to add a verb and a preposition to make the sentence make sense, is really a dishonest way for anyone to translate.
Now, if someone wants to be complementarian, go right ahead. However, try and be consistent in your translation. It should be something like this:
"I do not permit a woman to teach or authority a man; but to be in quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 Modified ESV
That is the word for word from the Greek! If you want to believe that for some reason God wants to block more than 50% of the church from the pulpit, Go ahead and translate the infinitive verb "authentein" as authority, a noun. Add a few words if you find that isn't working for you. (There is no word "over" either! I just looked at that. So, a dishonest translation that has to add 3 words to make it work? Something doesn't smell right to me!)
There is a terrible misogyny in the conservative evangelical church, in the western world, which in my opinion, is why the church is not growing. In third world countries the churches are exploding. In China, women lead most of the underground churches, as they do in many church plants. Chinese men do not want the job. And these women are on fire for God. And if someone tells them they cannot preach, they would show the incredible fruits their ministries are bearing.
I do find it interesting in a society which defends male superiority, that the church is dying. The church is having no influence on the world. Our societies are going down the tubes. But in these countries where women can fulfill their call to ministry, the fruits are abundant.
"By their fruits you will know them!" Matt. 7:16-20
1 Tim. 2:12, the Word "exercise authority" is "authentein" in Greek- αὐθεντεῖν. It is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only once in the Bible. Now, normally the word "exousia" is used for the word "authority." For example, in Matt 28, when Jesus says he has been given "all authority." Or when Paul write to submit to those in authority in Romans 13:1-3, the word is exousia.
Further, in fact, the word translated "exercise/usurp authority" is a non-indicative verb - a present infinitive, to be exact. So, to be truthful to the text of that word, one should translate it "to .... something." And "to... authority" doesn't work. Because "authority" is a noun. So, what some translators have done, is add a verb, an extra word which is not in the text, in order to make it reflect the translators' biases. This is very dishonest in a functional translation, and pretty much all modern versions, and older ones like KJV, have to push this dishonest translation, which has been used to keep women out of ministry for pretty much 400 years. To say nothing of following the man made traditions of the Roman Catholic Church Very sad!
So, because "authentein" is not found anywhere else in the Bible, it cannot be compared with the usage in other uses in the Bible. What has to be done, is compare what the word means in contemporaneous sources. So, in other words, what do texts that use the word around that time say the word is. In fact, there are as many as 50 uses. But the major one seems to be "to domineer." So, here we have an infinitive, a word which Paul is using over "usurping authority" (what a blatant sexist translation, if there ever was one!) So, fitting in "to dominate" and pulling out "exercise authority" we have a very good use of the word in the sentence, which also makes sense in terms of this Pastoral Letter.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to domineer a man; but, to be in quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 Modified ESV
Truly, why would Paul use this word, when he could have just written "to usurp authority," and everyone would have known what he was saying? Why would God lead him in this, of all places, to have a one use word?Probably because he didn't want this private letter to Timothy to be a universal statement. He was addressing the situation in Ephesus, where the priestesses of Artemis were known to be domineering, and were quite probably causing problems in Timothy's church. Paul also adds some doctrine, because in the mystery religions, women were created first. He wanted Timothy to understand the order of creation, so that he could speak to these women, and explain how and why they were wrong, and to get Timothy to stop these women from domineering in the congregation, which they must have being doing. Paul must roll his eyes every time Jesus points out another complementarian or church not allowing a woman pastor, because of this wrong translation.
In fact, I was discussing this with my Greek prof, who is a complimentarian, and he had me read his Word Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles. It was almost 40 pages long. Some attention was paid to the "silent" part, which you will notice above is translated "quiet" which is what it actually means. (Rabbinical students were instructed to "learn in silence." These women were getting the incredible opportunity to learn in silence, which the rabbis had never allowed them to. My prof, also got deeply into the order of creation, from the last part of this passage.
But, in the end, he admits that the entire discussion hinges around the translation of "authentein."He said he decided it means "to exercise authority." He also acknowledged other scholars disagreed with him. Well, I'm not in the realm of the scholarship of the type of people he was speaking about, but still, having to add a verb and a preposition to make the sentence make sense, is really a dishonest way for anyone to translate.
Now, if someone wants to be complementarian, go right ahead. However, try and be consistent in your translation. It should be something like this:
"I do not permit a woman to teach or authority a man; but to be in quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 Modified ESV
That is the word for word from the Greek! If you want to believe that for some reason God wants to block more than 50% of the church from the pulpit, Go ahead and translate the infinitive verb "authentein" as authority, a noun. Add a few words if you find that isn't working for you. (There is no word "over" either! I just looked at that. So, a dishonest translation that has to add 3 words to make it work? Something doesn't smell right to me!)
There is a terrible misogyny in the conservative evangelical church, in the western world, which in my opinion, is why the church is not growing. In third world countries the churches are exploding. In China, women lead most of the underground churches, as they do in many church plants. Chinese men do not want the job. And these women are on fire for God. And if someone tells them they cannot preach, they would show the incredible fruits their ministries are bearing.
I do find it interesting in a society which defends male superiority, that the church is dying. The church is having no influence on the world. Our societies are going down the tubes. But in these countries where women can fulfill their call to ministry, the fruits are abundant.
"By their fruits you will know them!" Matt. 7:16-20
Perhaps it would be wise to look at the early church and what Paul was dealing with, concerning the mixture of Jews and gentiles in the meetings?
There is a lot more on this topic, which I am not going to go into right now except to point out what the two qualifications for a pastor really are:
1. Be called by God. There is no anointing on someone who is pastoring in their own strength.
2. Be the best person for the job.
I have no objection to a male pastor, provided I know they are called by God, and they can do the job. When I lived in Edmonton, we were first in a church where the pastor was a good preacher, and he cared for the flock. Then he fell off a horse and broke his leg badly, and never recovered. I really think something went wrong, because he also hit his head in the fall. He stopped preaching the Bible, doing exegetical preaching. He started picking fights with literally every person in the congregation, some of them old people, some of them people who had been in the church much longer than him. It was "my way or the highway." I fled after 2 years of never hearing an exegetical sermon, although I did not get in a fight with him. But many others did. Now, he should have been removed, but he intimidated and terrorized everyone so they left, until he was forced to take another job to support his family, because the whole congregation had left.
I went to another Baptist Church from a different convention. The lead pastor was incredible. He literally was the best preacher I have ever heard in my life. He had a PhD in preaching, and had studied under Haddon Robinson, who is one of the best preachers in the last and this century. He had the ability to speak directly to me, a seminary graduate, along with the many other seminary grads and retired missionaries, while at the same time reaching the teens, the deaf, and people like a close friend of mine, who grew up in Peru, and spoke with broken English.
So a great man pastor, things must have been great? Well, as I became involved in different ministries I found out what a terrible, ingrown and selfish mess the elder board was in. I was on an outreach committee and we looked for various ideas to help the community, meet needs while preaching the gospel. Before I came, an out of school day care was proposed. Everything fell into place. They found workers, funding, there was a great place for them to meet. But the elder board kept stalling on the proposal. The people who were going to do the work gave up. Another year passed. Those self important man dragged their feet another couple of years. The daycare was not functional when we moved provinces. God gave me an idea to reach out to people who were depressed, stressed, and generally not coping with life. My original idea was to run a support group for the mentally ill, which I wanted to run. I guess that was not my destiny. The committee wanted to bring in a big radio personality, but it took a full 3 years to get it through the elder board and get it going. It was a free lecture, and then an expensive 6 week session led by a qualified psychiatrist nurse. Not exactly on-going support, especially if you didn't have money to be in the 6 week course. I have no idea how it turned out. All I know, is that should have been a simple and easy plan, one room, once a week, with various leaders, bring in some professionals, etc to meet a desperate need in our community.
Then there was the nepotism on that elder board. I tell you, if that board had been a workplace, the entire lot would have been fired! I guess that is what happens when you get a bunch of egotistical men together (I'm not saying all elders are like this, just that this one sure was!)
When we moved, we had a great pastor, his first pastorate, he'd been there about a year before we arrived. He was helping support a lot of people with mental or addiction issues. He cared for the flock, and his preaching was very sound. Then, one day, he didn't come back to church. We kept praying for him, apparently he was sick. Finally, coincidentily on a day I preached on depression, (Psalm 42) the head of our elder board got up, and said that he was depressed and he was resigning. Lucky we had such an awesome elder board, led by two women, with some incredible men, and they lead the church through a year long search for a new pastor.
The man that they put forward, I had some serious reservations. But the man in charge of the search committee felt he was the best man to do the job. I was really upset with his sermons on his videos. They were devoid of Biblical content. As they continue to be! To say nothing of the fact, when I was discussing some things with him, he told me he was into Open Theism. I just about dropped my jaw to the ground. I began to wonder if I should have applied for the job. Surely a wrong theology wasn't the right way for the church to go?
He had a lot of people attending at first, and they all left. We have a small core left. People want Biblical teaching, and he does not give it. Not sure what will happen.
So, having a man in charge is no guarantee things will be in order. Simply because, we are all, men and women, imperfect people. I have just watched too many men fall or fail to lead the congregation. Some mistranslated verses do not bestow god like authority on men. A woman who loves God, is trained to read Scirpture correctly, and who preaches exegetically is certainly better than some man hiding his heresies, or lording their position over others, to say nothing about the pastor who literally chased his congregation away.
I was to blessed to be under the preaching of the pastor in that one church. But he could not control the power the elder board had given to themselves, and things were terribly out of order.
So much more to say, but, off to my real life!
1. Be called by God. There is no anointing on someone who is pastoring in their own strength.
2. Be the best person for the job.
I have no objection to a male pastor, provided I know they are called by God, and they can do the job. When I lived in Edmonton, we were first in a church where the pastor was a good preacher, and he cared for the flock. Then he fell off a horse and broke his leg badly, and never recovered. I really think something went wrong, because he also hit his head in the fall. He stopped preaching the Bible, doing exegetical preaching. He started picking fights with literally every person in the congregation, some of them old people, some of them people who had been in the church much longer than him. It was "my way or the highway." I fled after 2 years of never hearing an exegetical sermon, although I did not get in a fight with him. But many others did. Now, he should have been removed, but he intimidated and terrorized everyone so they left, until he was forced to take another job to support his family, because the whole congregation had left.
I went to another Baptist Church from a different convention. The lead pastor was incredible. He literally was the best preacher I have ever heard in my life. He had a PhD in preaching, and had studied under Haddon Robinson, who is one of the best preachers in the last and this century. He had the ability to speak directly to me, a seminary graduate, along with the many other seminary grads and retired missionaries, while at the same time reaching the teens, the deaf, and people like a close friend of mine, who grew up in Peru, and spoke with broken English.
So a great man pastor, things must have been great? Well, as I became involved in different ministries I found out what a terrible, ingrown and selfish mess the elder board was in. I was on an outreach committee and we looked for various ideas to help the community, meet needs while preaching the gospel. Before I came, an out of school day care was proposed. Everything fell into place. They found workers, funding, there was a great place for them to meet. But the elder board kept stalling on the proposal. The people who were going to do the work gave up. Another year passed. Those self important man dragged their feet another couple of years. The daycare was not functional when we moved provinces. God gave me an idea to reach out to people who were depressed, stressed, and generally not coping with life. My original idea was to run a support group for the mentally ill, which I wanted to run. I guess that was not my destiny. The committee wanted to bring in a big radio personality, but it took a full 3 years to get it through the elder board and get it going. It was a free lecture, and then an expensive 6 week session led by a qualified psychiatrist nurse. Not exactly on-going support, especially if you didn't have money to be in the 6 week course. I have no idea how it turned out. All I know, is that should have been a simple and easy plan, one room, once a week, with various leaders, bring in some professionals, etc to meet a desperate need in our community.
Then there was the nepotism on that elder board. I tell you, if that board had been a workplace, the entire lot would have been fired! I guess that is what happens when you get a bunch of egotistical men together (I'm not saying all elders are like this, just that this one sure was!)
When we moved, we had a great pastor, his first pastorate, he'd been there about a year before we arrived. He was helping support a lot of people with mental or addiction issues. He cared for the flock, and his preaching was very sound. Then, one day, he didn't come back to church. We kept praying for him, apparently he was sick. Finally, coincidentily on a day I preached on depression, (Psalm 42) the head of our elder board got up, and said that he was depressed and he was resigning. Lucky we had such an awesome elder board, led by two women, with some incredible men, and they lead the church through a year long search for a new pastor.
The man that they put forward, I had some serious reservations. But the man in charge of the search committee felt he was the best man to do the job. I was really upset with his sermons on his videos. They were devoid of Biblical content. As they continue to be! To say nothing of the fact, when I was discussing some things with him, he told me he was into Open Theism. I just about dropped my jaw to the ground. I began to wonder if I should have applied for the job. Surely a wrong theology wasn't the right way for the church to go?
He had a lot of people attending at first, and they all left. We have a small core left. People want Biblical teaching, and he does not give it. Not sure what will happen.
So, having a man in charge is no guarantee things will be in order. Simply because, we are all, men and women, imperfect people. I have just watched too many men fall or fail to lead the congregation. Some mistranslated verses do not bestow god like authority on men. A woman who loves God, is trained to read Scirpture correctly, and who preaches exegetically is certainly better than some man hiding his heresies, or lording their position over others, to say nothing about the pastor who literally chased his congregation away.
I was to blessed to be under the preaching of the pastor in that one church. But he could not control the power the elder board had given to themselves, and things were terribly out of order.
So much more to say, but, off to my real life!
A pastor is a teacher the idea of a lead/head/senior pastor is RCC doctrine they just call them father. Every place leadership in the Church is talked about it never talks about a pastor as the sole leader of the Church Jesus says, no. Mark 10:42-45 "And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Ephesians is the only place that mentions pastors and teachers, never mentions them as the leader of the Church. Lock at Acts 15:6-17 "Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things."
Notice Peter is not in charge, the matter was before the apostle and elders with James making the call.
This thread should not be "Female pastor's, ok or not?
It should be pastors right or wrong? What I've notice when going to a Church where there ism a head pastor, he's always the pope of that fellowship. Sure the people don't see it, but the other pastors, elders and deacons do. The Church with it's movement of not talking about sin and the rest. Have not removed themselves from the RCC doctrine of a superstar pastor that is the final authority. Paul never give instruction on what a pastor should be or instruction on selecting one.
Based on scripture, that is correct:
Qualifications for Ministry
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.
Deacons - Strongs G1249
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, could bring ruin.
1 Timothy 2:12 Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesnt appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER.
I think the bigger question is should pastors be the final say as the head or under Shepard in the Church, that's the real question. Which the reality is that we've so program about pastors being the ones that run the Church with the help of elders and deacons, that when this comes up we naturally go to I Timothy and Titus, when Paul is talking about overseers, elders and deacons, not pre at all. With that in view, a women can be a pastor, but she doesn't meet the qualification of an overseer, elder or deacon, because they all are to be the husband of one wife, a women can't be a husband or have a wife.
Philippians 1:1-2 "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
In I Timothy Paul says, deacons likewise, they should meet the same standards of the overseer. Paul gives the criteria for a worker or servant of the Lord in II Timothy 2:14-26 "Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
Paul says nothing about leadership here, this should apply to all believers, notice also Paul names Hymenaeus and Philters, as swerving from the faith or being apostasies of the faith, so the idea that you should not call people our for heretical doctrine is out the window. If you are a servant of the Lord you are called to call them out and show them and others through the Word of God why they are wrong. So that God might grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth.
So Angela's right, there is nothing about women not being pastors, because pastors are not to be leaders of the Church, they are for the equipping of the saints. Now coming the question should women teach with authority over men? Paul already answered that. By looking at all the women teachers out there, they all teach a false doctrine, sorry ladies. Two cases were a man was persuaded by the wives that turned out bad. First one Adam, "And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field."
we are all sinners because he listened to her, Abram "And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai.3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress." Genesis 16:2-4 the result of listening to his wife, "He shall be a wild donkey of a man,
his hand against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."
Who are Ishmael's kinsmen, the Jews, are all the other people that live in the middle east of the 12 from Ismael? I have no clue, but they stand against them quite a bit.
It seems that the Holy Spirit used the first story to relate that women should not teach with authority over men, in I Timothy 2:14, because both men listened the voice of their wife. Can women be pastors, yes, in the sense that they can teach with authority over men, no. With the bigger picture being where does it say that pastors are the main leader or even to lead a Church with elders and deacons bing under them or where the overseer is to lead soley, because some say that an overseer is the pastor? The Church should be lead by a presbytery of overseers, elders and deacons, it really is a beautiful thing. No shot caller, super star or the buck stops here type.
Ephesians 4:11-16 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUB]12 [/SUB]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."
Notice it does not separate pastors and teachers, where it does with all the rest and some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists some pastors and teachers, not some pastors and some teachers.
Philippians 1:1-2 "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
In I Timothy Paul says, deacons likewise, they should meet the same standards of the overseer. Paul gives the criteria for a worker or servant of the Lord in II Timothy 2:14-26 "Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
Paul says nothing about leadership here, this should apply to all believers, notice also Paul names Hymenaeus and Philters, as swerving from the faith or being apostasies of the faith, so the idea that you should not call people our for heretical doctrine is out the window. If you are a servant of the Lord you are called to call them out and show them and others through the Word of God why they are wrong. So that God might grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth.
So Angela's right, there is nothing about women not being pastors, because pastors are not to be leaders of the Church, they are for the equipping of the saints. Now coming the question should women teach with authority over men? Paul already answered that. By looking at all the women teachers out there, they all teach a false doctrine, sorry ladies. Two cases were a man was persuaded by the wives that turned out bad. First one Adam, "And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field."
we are all sinners because he listened to her, Abram "And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai.3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress." Genesis 16:2-4 the result of listening to his wife, "He shall be a wild donkey of a man,
his hand against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."
Who are Ishmael's kinsmen, the Jews, are all the other people that live in the middle east of the 12 from Ismael? I have no clue, but they stand against them quite a bit.
It seems that the Holy Spirit used the first story to relate that women should not teach with authority over men, in I Timothy 2:14, because both men listened the voice of their wife. Can women be pastors, yes, in the sense that they can teach with authority over men, no. With the bigger picture being where does it say that pastors are the main leader or even to lead a Church with elders and deacons bing under them or where the overseer is to lead soley, because some say that an overseer is the pastor? The Church should be lead by a presbytery of overseers, elders and deacons, it really is a beautiful thing. No shot caller, super star or the buck stops here type.
Ephesians 4:11-16 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [SUB]12 [/SUB]for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."
Notice it does not separate pastors and teachers, where it does with all the rest and some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists some pastors and teachers, not some pastors and some teachers.
I believe that God designed men to lead, which is why He appointed them as head of the household, and women are to submit to their husbands. Adam was created first, then Eve was created as a helper for Adam, though the scriptures indicate they were made equally in God's eyes.
I think we can see how God views our roles by looking at how He designed marriage. He created us differently for a reason, and gives us roles to compliment each other. Women are the nurturers, taking care of the children and tending to the house. This is why gay families don't work. Not only are they sinful, but children need that balance from both a mum and a dad.
If women take on roles of leadership/pastor then will they be neglecting their role of mother and wife? Maybe this was God's concern, because the leadership would be a focus in their life. They would also be taking away the role of a man, who is the one called to lead. Christ is the head of the church, and a man is head of the household. Women can still evangelize and share with others, just that I don't think they are to take a position of authority/leadership within the church. I would think that a women's bible group or similar would be different though.
I'm feminine anyway, so I like to let men be men. We were created different for a reason
I wonder too if this is mostly an American thing? I'm from England and I noticed when I moved here to the US that women here are stronger, more outspoken and there is a loss of femininity here, not like in Europe, and in some cases American women emasculate their men. Not saying all, but just an observation of some. I wonder if feminism has led to women taking more leadership roles within their homes even. I've also noticed that it seems common for black women to take charge of their men. I wonder if it has something to do with when the men were taken as slaves that the women were forced to take on that leadership role in their households, and then raise their children to do the same, as it seems that tradition continues. The only exception seems to be in christian households where it's clear to see the man leading. On the other extreme I've noticed in some latino families that the older men especially (old school) will just sit there and not lift a finger, expecting to be waited on by the woman (hand and foot). Not even help with the dishes?
Not criticizing anyone, just that I find it interesting. Even religion itself mingles in as part of a country's identity. For example, if you were born somewhere in South America, the majority are Roman Catholic there and raise their children that way.
I think ultimately if a woman feels she is being called by God then she needs to pray on it, and whether it will affect her role of mother and wife if she took on a leadership role. And women that are currently pastors, I believe God still uses them. Just giving my thoughts. Sorry, went a bit off topic
I think we can see how God views our roles by looking at how He designed marriage. He created us differently for a reason, and gives us roles to compliment each other. Women are the nurturers, taking care of the children and tending to the house. This is why gay families don't work. Not only are they sinful, but children need that balance from both a mum and a dad.
If women take on roles of leadership/pastor then will they be neglecting their role of mother and wife? Maybe this was God's concern, because the leadership would be a focus in their life. They would also be taking away the role of a man, who is the one called to lead. Christ is the head of the church, and a man is head of the household. Women can still evangelize and share with others, just that I don't think they are to take a position of authority/leadership within the church. I would think that a women's bible group or similar would be different though.
I'm feminine anyway, so I like to let men be men. We were created different for a reason
I wonder too if this is mostly an American thing? I'm from England and I noticed when I moved here to the US that women here are stronger, more outspoken and there is a loss of femininity here, not like in Europe, and in some cases American women emasculate their men. Not saying all, but just an observation of some. I wonder if feminism has led to women taking more leadership roles within their homes even. I've also noticed that it seems common for black women to take charge of their men. I wonder if it has something to do with when the men were taken as slaves that the women were forced to take on that leadership role in their households, and then raise their children to do the same, as it seems that tradition continues. The only exception seems to be in christian households where it's clear to see the man leading. On the other extreme I've noticed in some latino families that the older men especially (old school) will just sit there and not lift a finger, expecting to be waited on by the woman (hand and foot). Not even help with the dishes?
Not criticizing anyone, just that I find it interesting. Even religion itself mingles in as part of a country's identity. For example, if you were born somewhere in South America, the majority are Roman Catholic there and raise their children that way.
I think ultimately if a woman feels she is being called by God then she needs to pray on it, and whether it will affect her role of mother and wife if she took on a leadership role. And women that are currently pastors, I believe God still uses them. Just giving my thoughts. Sorry, went a bit off topic
Depends on the point of view. Yes, Adam was in the position of authority (I wonder why some say that the leadership of a man is something that was brought in by the fall, when the same people try to give all responsibility for fall to Adam).
But it all came from Eve, she started it first. And I think that Paul is making the point that she (a woman) will be saved by the "bearing of the child" as promised to Eve - Christ, who was of Mary only, without a man.
I think its quite a nice view, so I do not know why do women do not like this explanation. Salvation was brought to the world through a woman, is it not nice for you?
No man can say that.
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It is always wise to look at the early church. Do you have some early Christian writings (except of the NT places we talk about) that say something about women in the position of the leadership?