TRIBULATION LIE

Bladerunner · May 4, 2017

GaryA thought I would give you one more insight to Revelations.

.In 1 thes 1:9-10..."9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."[/U].

If this is the case, we the Church will NOT go through the tribulations (God's Wrath).

GaryA · May 4, 2017

Bladerunner said:

But --- you mistakenly think that "the tribulations" and "God's Wrath" are the same thing...

GaryA · May 4, 2017

pre-trib folks - please answer

GaryA said:

*** BUMP ***

Bladerunner · May 4, 2017

GaryA said:

No,,, don't think so.....Try these out!

Revelation 6:16-17 "and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?"

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bondservants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Revelation 14:10 "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

Revelation 14:19 "And the angel swung his sickle to the earth, and gathered clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Revelation 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."

Revelation 15:7 "And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever."

Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth."

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come."

Revelation 16:9-11 "9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

GaryA · May 5, 2017

The particular phrases you underlined in those verses are all making reference to the 'vials'.

popeye · May 5, 2017

rily51jean said:

Hi Popeye,

I don't believe the Rapture Doctrine at all. Darby and his associates listened to the hallucinatory visions of a deliriously ill girl, named Margaret MacDonald in 1830, and built their rapture doctrine religion on what she thought she saw, and not on what God says in His word, in the bible.
The events of 1948, Israel being restored as a nation state, was future to Darby, I don't know that he would have any foreknowledge to that, or not. Even so, that doesn't matter to me.
Nobody's salvation depends upon whether or not they believe there is a Millennium after the return of Christ, even though the Bible speaks of that 1,000 years in Rev. 20:1-10. The only way that people are saved, is by turning to Christ, confessing to Him, and repenting of their sins, and reforming their lives, turning to Jesus Christ, and believing upon Him, and obeying His commands. That's the only way people are saved. It doesn't matter what they believe in about the "Millenium" that's not the "deal-breaker".
I rely on Christ to give me strength through His word, and through prayer, not on anybody else's "ability". And I've seen the power of His hand more than once in my life, in answer to my prayer.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight." Prov. 3:5-6 God has a way of taking care of those who love Him, according to His will and purpose.
No, I'm not Catholic, I'm not Lutheran, I'm not Presbyterian, I'm not Episcopalian, I'm not Baptist, I'm not Methodist, I'm not Amish, Hutterite, or any other "-ists, -ans, etc., etc.. I read God's word, and the word of Christ as given in the King James Companion Bible, and that's all I read, and if I don't understand it, I take it to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, back to the original Hebrew or Greek to get more clarification. I might take a look at the Commentaries by Henry Matthew, he's quite eloquent, and explanatory. But, otherwise, if God tells me in His word "Don't Do That!", what part of "Don't Do That!" do I not understand? If God says "No!", what part of "No!", do I not understand? Simple as that. What it boils down to, is this: It doesn't matter what you think, or I think, or anybody else thinks, it only matters what God thinks, and says in His word, through His prophets, and through Jesus Christ. That's all that matters.

She was post trib. You can read it online.

She thought like you do,that the church needed to go through the GT for cleansing.

See where your your dead men lead you?

You guys don't do your homework,and end up calling yourselves delusional.

Too funny

Bladerunner · May 5, 2017

Re: pre-trib folks - please answer

GaryA said:

I think you are getting the two mixed up. The Rapture does not represent the coming of Christ.

There is a return to the clouds in the Rapture to gather his Church, It will be over in a "Twinkle of the EYE" and only HIS church will see HIM!!!!

There is a return to the Earth through the clouds (with his army and saints from Heaven) at the Second Advent to battle the antichrist, false profit, satan and the armies of the earth; to set up his 1000 year reign in Jerusaelm and all of earth will see him.

Now you alluded to that statement a minute ago and I think I know why? HOW can all of the earth dwellers see him come out of the clouds at the Second Advent?

Some say CNN but they are not taking into account that the world will be a mess. Roughly 1/2 of the earths inhabitants will die. Mountains moved as in rev 6:16 but mountains leveled and cities GONE as in Rev. 16:18-19....Prior to the Second Advent.

There will be NO TV, PHONES, Computers, etc. by then. So how can everyone see Jesus come back in the Clouds at the Second Advent. YES< YOU GOT IT,,,,Just say it.

Rockrz · May 5, 2017

The Blood of Jesus... is God's cleanser YO

GaryA · May 5, 2017

I am just wondering if there are any 'pre-trib' folks out there who are not afraid of giving a direct answer to the specific questions asked in the quote bubbles in post #483...???

Thanks in advance to anyone who is actually willing to discuss even one of these in a direct-and-specific manner -- staying on topic without posting "other material" that has no direct association with the particular topic whatsoever.

I want to know what you think about phrases like "your Lord doth come" and "at his coming" in verses that you believe are referring to a 'pre-trib' "rapture" event.

Any takers?

PrynceNY · May 5, 2017

GaryA said:

Well there is other scriptures such as Luke 21:35 - For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. So keep watch at all times, and pray that you are counted worthy to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”

As well as it referred to a "Banquet" in Matthew 22:14 - For many are invited, but few are chosen. If the rapture does take place only few will be counted worthy the rest will go through refinement

Ahwatukee · May 5, 2017

Hello Rily51jean,

Many who believe that the church will be gathered after God's wrath and when He returns to the earth to end the age, use the apologetic that you used above regarding Darby and MacDonald. The fact is that, one would have to read and follow those people and adopt their teaching. Regarding this, in all the years I have been studying Revelation and end-time events, I have never read anything by any of those people. All of my conclusions are derived from cross-referencing and comparing scriptures. What you are claiming is just a knee-jerk reaction to support your position and that because I have heard the same apologetic by many others. I personally get tired of people inferring that my interpretation of scripture comes from the people mentioned above. In order for that to be true I would have to have read their material and adopted their teachings, which couldn't be further from the truth.

The above is not completely true! Do you remember Hymeneas and Philetus? They were believers, but they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Because of this, Paul said that they had wandered away from the truth, that their teaching would spread like gangrene and that they were destroying the faith of some. That's one example and here is another:

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

So in the scripture above, Peter refers to Paul's letters as 'wisdom from God" and as "scripture." Regarding those believers who were distorting them, called them ignorant and unstable and they did so to their own destruction.

Neither are those saved who believe in Christ but who are trusting in the works of the law. In writing to the Galatians who were being led astray by false teachers who were leading them back under salvation by the works of the law, Paul said that they had wandered away from grace and had been alienated from Christ.

These are all scriptural truths.

popeye · May 5, 2017

GaryA said:

No,you simply mis applied.

Rev 15 STARTS with an angel with the last plagues,and rev 14 says " blessed is everyone who dies from henceforth."
And if that were not enough,the 144k are called First Fruits,and are in heaven BEFORE that gathering of rev 14.

And do note there is ZERO in there that the "one on a cloud" ,Jesus,continues to descend to earth.

So,you intentionally perverted that. Intentionally.

Your deal makes you change God's word.

Good luck with that.

popeye · May 5, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Rily51jean,

Many who believe that the church will be gathered after God's wrath and when He returns to the earth to end the age, use the apologetic that you used above regarding Darby and MacDonald. The fact is that, one would have to read and follow those people and adopt their teaching. Regarding this, in all the years I have been studying Revelation and end-time events, I have never read anything by any of those people. All of my conclusions are derived from cross-referencing and comparing scriptures. What you are claiming is just a knee-jerk reaction to support your position and that because I have heard the same apologetic by many others. I personally get tired of people inferring that my interpretation of scripture comes from the people mentioned above. In order for that to be true I would have to have read their material and adopted their teachings, which couldn't be further from the truth.

The above is not completely true! Do you remember Hymeneas and Philetus? They were believers, but they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Because of this, Paul said that they had wandered away from the truth, that their teaching would spread like gangrene and that they were destroying the faith of some. That's one example and here is another:

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

So in the scripture above, Peter refers to Paul's letters as 'wisdom from God" and as "scripture." Regarding those believers who were distorting them, called them ignorant and unstable and they did so to their own destruction.

Neither are those saved who believe in Christ but who are trusting in the works of the law. In writing to the Galatians who were being led astray by false teachers who were leading them back under salvation by the works of the law, Paul said that they had wandered away from grace and had been alienated from Christ.

These are all scriptural truths.

They ,postribs,actually defeat their own doctrine.

The reason those dead men misconstrued end time events is because Israel had not become a nation under their watch. Once that happened,it redefined prophecy.

It literally PROVES them wrong. Their own deal gets SHOWCASED by themselves as bogus.

Too funny

popeye · May 5, 2017

Re: pre-trib folks - please answer

Bladerunner said:

I think you are getting the two mixed up. The Rapture does not represent the coming of Christ.

There is a return to the clouds in the Rapture to gather his Church, It will be over in a "Twinkle of the EYE" and only HIS church will see HIM!!!!

There is a return to the Earth through the clouds (with his army and saints from Heaven) at the Second Advent to battle the antichrist, false profit, satan and the armies of the earth; to set up his 1000 year reign in Jerusaelm and all of earth will see him.

Now you alluded to that statement a minute ago and I think I know why? HOW can all of the earth dwellers see him come out of the clouds at the Second Advent?

Some say CNN but they are not taking into account that the world will be a mess. Roughly 1/2 of the earths inhabitants will die. Mountains moved as in rev 6:16 but mountains leveled and cities GONE as in Rev. 16:18-19....Prior to the Second Advent.

There will be NO TV, PHONES, Computers, etc. by then. So how can everyone see Jesus come back in the Clouds at the Second Advent. YES< YOU GOT IT,,,,Just say it.

Yes indeed. They place the rapture at a time when the earth is all but destroyed,and even the Jews are already harvested( rev 14).

The bible absolutely,hands down,refutes their dead deal.

Bladerunner · May 5, 2017

GaryA said:

GaryA,,,,,What you did not like my answers so you seek comfort elsewhere. No I have not looked up the verses but the phrases you have quoted tells me that what they speak of is in the future.

"your Lord doth come" It is apparent it is not in the past or the present as 'Your Lord did come' or Your Lord Is/has come'

"at his coming" It is also apparent this phrase is not in the past or present. I will be ready 'at his coming'

For more detail, I would have to read the context they are in.

It appears you have either closed off you mind and in the words of another on this form "there is nothing you can say to change my mind" OR you are a wolf in sheep's clothing with a different agenda.

I suspect the later is true.

valiant · May 5, 2017

Bladerunner said:

GaryA,,,,,What you did not like my answers so you seek comfort elsewhere. No I have not looked up the verses but the phrases you have quoted tells me that what they speak of is in the future.

"your Lord doth come" It is apparent it is not in the past or the present as 'Your Lord did come' or Your Lord Is/has come'

"at his coming" It is also apparent this phrase is not in the past or present. I will be ready 'at his coming'

For more detail, I would have to read the context they are in.

It appears you have either closed off you mind and in the words of another on this form "there is nothing you can say to change my mind" OR you are a wolf in sheep's clothing with a different agenda.

I suspect the later is true.

So these are statements of our Lord about His final coming. He says nothing about any 'tribulation'.

GaryA · May 5, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Please do...

Take your time.

I will wait.

GaryA · May 5, 2017

popeye said:

The 144,000 are never in heaven. ( In the context of any passage of scripture in Revelation. )

Is mount Sion in heaven?

popeye said:

Correct! He does not descend to the Earth at that time. Nor does he go "up", either. Those who are "reaped" stay with Him in the air above the Earth until after the 'Wrath' is "poured out upon the Earth"...

Bladerunner · May 5, 2017

GaryA said:

OK do you want to give the scripture where they came from...I guess I could probably find them but I want to be sure I am seeing the same verses you are.

GaryA · May 5, 2017

popeye said:

I just love it when people tell me that I have perverted scripture --- when I actually agree with them on the particular point they think I have perverted...

SMH

Does the phrase "quick to judge" bring any particular scriptural precepts or principles to mind...?

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