Not By Works

[BillG]

This is different than saying that it's God that does the good works for us.

How is it different, if without God we can't do anything?

Now just so you all know I am not getting at anyone but I would like to ask the following a simple thing.

lets say I know of someone who can't afford to put food on the table. So I buy them a load of groceries.

lets say someone else knows of someone who can't put food on the table and they buy them a load of groceries.

Neither of us have done it for personal recognition but seen a genuine need.

I am a believer and the other person is not.

What is the difference between them and me?
What separates us in terms of the good work we have both done?

 

[1ofthem]

All we can do is put our faith and trust in Jesus. He is our strength. He is the Savior. We have to trust him to do the work for us and through us. We can do nothing good of ourselves. We may think we’re doing something good and actually go against the will of the Father. We have to listen to him and let him lead us and guide us and let him do the work in us and through us.

We know nothing and can do nothing good of ourselves so to God be the glory.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes Grace. The grace of God and our Paraclete does help us to do all works.
I know what you mean about doing missionary work. That is a MISSION. We must be called to do a mission, whatever that mission may be - it could be teaching children, it could be running a Christian book store with no pay, it could be a lot of things.

I do separate this from works. Once we are saved and following Jesus, I feel that EVERYTHING we do is for God.
NOT if we're getting mad at our neighbor!

But every good thing we do comes from the power of God within us. This is different than saying that it's God that does the good works for us.

Theologically this would be incorrect. It's kind of like having free will. We MUST NECESSARILY have free will. If we don't, then GOD is responsible for our sins and not us.

If we're going to say that God does our good works, which it seems to me is what is being said (I may have misunderstood but some here are willing to attack but not to discuss - not very Christianly I might add)

THEN we MUST NECESSARILY also say that those who do NOT do good works and are saved do not do them due to a fault of God.

If we want to say this, then we must say that we are not responsible for anything --- neither our good works or our bad or non-works.

Also, some here say that it's pride that let's us say we do good works.
NO. It's only pride if we go around bragging about what we do every day.

I like what St. Francis said way back in 1,200 AD.

ALWAYS witness,
and only when absolutely necessary,
USE WORDS.

In other words, our whole life should be a witness. It's GOOD if we say that we love God and serve Him and then do good works. People might just wonder how it is that we're different.

We're SUPPOSED to be different.

I understand what you are saying and I think I see what you mean - God doesn't force us like a robot to do things.

There seems to be the ability of us "doing good things" which do not originate from love. The people receiving these good works do get something from it but we don't. We can do "good things" out of a wrong motive of the flesh and that means it's not really from God.

No flesh shall glory ( receive praise ) in His presence.

1 Corinthians 13:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

I don't think that man has the ability to say "That good work is of the flesh and that good work is of the spirit." That's God's work.

I believe we are to be led by the Holy Spirit in all things and that is a growing in the Lord.

Sometimes we can do "good deeds" and yet it not is the thing that needs to be done at that particular time. Take the prodigal son story - if a Christian saw him in the pig-pen and then decided to give him food to eat - he might not have been motivated to go back to his father because his need was met from another source. That wasn't what he needed at the time.

That's why we need to be sensitive to what is going on inside of us because God is joined as one spirit with us in our spirit - not in our head. He leads us by the Spirit inside of our spirit.

In saying all that - our propensity as Christians displaying the life of Christ in and through us - will be prone to doing good at every opportunity as it is the goodness of God that brings us all to repentance and "goodness" is a fruit of the spirit.

I think one important element in this is that we are to "delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of our heart." In other words as we delight in Jesus Himself and the Father and how they view us - His desires for us will be birthed in our hearts."

A "good work" would be to serve as a sunday school teacher for kids - but if we don't really like working with kids - then the chances are that's not God telling us to work with them. Our attempt of a "good work" would be of the flesh and most likely from the wrong desire not birthed from God.

The true desire would be manifested in the fact that we love kids and love to teach them about God and what He has done for them. It will be a natural desire that will come spontaneously from our heart of love - and not because "it is the Christian thing to do" and to work "for" God.

There is a difference IMO in the mentality or belief system of working "for" God and working "with" God. I have often said "I will never work "for" God but I will forever with a heart of love work "with" God. There is a difference.

Sorry for the long post but there are different elements at play here and it takes time to sort out the concepts in a way that is understandable.

 

[FranC]

I think there is a sort of a problem and that's defining what one considers good works.
I asked that question a while back.

Some would say that good works are not sinning.
Some say loving your neighbour.

God does not do our good works but rather he uses us to do his good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

To me it is the Holy Spirit working in us to conform to the image of Christ and in doing so people will see the light of Jesus in us.
Hopefully this would have them asking about Jesus.

Works are not to glorify us, not to impress our father, not to earn our salvation.

They are an outworking of the inward change as a result of genuine faith in Jesus.

All youve said above is right on.
Perfectly said.

Good works CANNOT mean not sinning since we all sin every day.
Even atheists do good works. So, yes, understanding good works is important.

Jesus said that if we love Him, we will obey what He taught.
So what did He teach?
I like to point to the beatitudes because they represent an internal change that God requires.
If we have the light and life of God within us it will be apparent. Then every little thing we do is a "work".
Going to our job is a work
Making dinner
Smiling at a neighbor
Visiting someone in the hospital
Treating each other here with love and respect

These are all works.
Why?
Because before we did them blindly, and maybe even reluctantly.
Now we do them for God and for His glory.

We are here to know, love, and SERVE the Lord.

 

[blessedjohn80]

I think the perfect example of a "good work" in the bible is in the parable of the lost sheep.

"And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!"

Good works while at rest on Jesus' shoulders.
Wow!

 

[Grace777x70]

I think the perfect example of a "good work" in the bible is in the parable of the lost sheep.

"And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!"

Good works while at rest on Jesus' shoulders.
Wow!

Well said...Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things. He is the true originator of His good works that we participate in "with" Him as sons/daughters of the kingdom.

In the parable Jesus said there is much rejoicing because there was repentance and just how did this sheep repent? By allowing the Shepherd to carry him and to rely on His work alone to bring the sheep to safety.

 

[blessedjohn80]

Well said...Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things. He is the true originator of His good works that we participate in "with" Him as sons/daughters of the kingdom.

In the parable Jesus said there is much rejoicing because there was repentance and just how did this sheep repent? By allowing the Shepherd to carry him and to rely on His work alone to bring the sheep to safety.

Amen! Amen! Amen!

I just wish I could give Jesus a rep up in this forum!

 

[BillG]

Amen! Amen! Amen!

I just wish I could give Jesus a rep up in this forum!

Now that would be very interesting

 

[PeterJens]

Well said...Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things. He is the true originator of His good works that we participate in "with" Him as sons/daughters of the kingdom.

In the parable Jesus said there is much rejoicing because there was repentance and just how did this sheep repent? By allowing the Shepherd to carry him and to rely on His work alone to bring the sheep to safety.

So for you repentance is being carried. A sheep does not choose this, it is forced on them.
To talk of repentance like this is not biblical and shows your heart.

Good works are actions believers do to help others.
May the Lord forgive you. It is a wonder how you get to this odd theology.
The good Samaritan is Jesus's example of love for your neighbour.

People are so scared of just showing love, very odd, must be the none loving
version of faith, no light, no salt. Did Jesus say only worthy of being trampled
under foot?

We help because we love, and we love because of Jesus, Amen, Praise Him

 

[gb9]

So for you repentance is being carried. A sheep does not choose this, it is forced on them.
To talk of repentance like this is not biblical and shows your heart.

Good works are actions believers do to help others.
May the Lord forgive you. It is a wonder how you get to this odd theology.
The good Samaritan is Jesus's example of love for your neighbour.

People are so scared of just showing love, very odd, must be the none loving
version of faith, no light, no salt. Did Jesus say only worthy of being trampled
under foot?

We help because we love, and we love because of Jesus, Amen, Praise Him

well, seemingly , your theology would state that the since the sheep wondered off, it was strictly up to the sheep to find it's way back to the Shepard. and it would die lost and go to hell, since it did not make it's way back.

so, what many of us try to tell you every day is that type of theology puts your salvation in your hands, up to the individual to keep it or lose it. when the lost sheep, lost coin, and other parables clearly show that we are saved by GRACE alone, apart from works.

 

[BillG]

The good Samaritan, meeting the need, that is our example, do good, meet the need and
praise God. Amen

Intersting post.

My eyes zoomed in on 'meet the need and praise God'
It didn't zoom in on meet the need but "praise God"

I am not sure what you mean by the last bit.

I am going to have to assume that you are saying when we meet the need praise God. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So based on my assumption it got me thinking.

I can never recall myself praising God when I have met a need.

My response when it has become apparent I have met a need is not to praise him but scratch my head and as "Why on earth are you using me, I am rotten to the core, why use me?

I had the privilege of leading someone to Christ recently, a broken man. I had spent many a time with him and one day he called me and asked if we could speak. Up to this point he would say I can't believe Jesus rose from the dead.

So we met and after two hours he was on his knees as such calling out to Jesus, and came into his loving arms after confessing out loud "Jesus I confess with my mouth that you are Lord and I believe in my heart that God raised you from the dead, I come to you as I am (and When prayed that he didn't hold back, he turned the air turned blue and as he did thanked Jesus)"

By the time he had finished he was a totally different person, a whole weight lifted.

Anyway the reason I have mentioned the above is not to make me look good but to say I came away saying "God what on earth happened here and why on earth did you use me, I am rotten to the core"

Does anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

If so do we often forget?

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[dcontroversal]

Work out is not work for and the context is clear.......

Works are the evidence of faith and salvation already possessed.......

It pleases God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe<----zero works.....belief=salvation

 

[JIMBO43]

Work out is not work for and the context is clear.......

Works are the evidence of faith and salvation already possessed.......

It pleases God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe<----zero works.....belief=salvation

Works are not something that you allready possess works are an ongoing process....

Works are being prepared for you to do newly and daily.

Faith is also an ongoing process... Where by your measure of faith may increase...


You are recieving the salvation of your soul... and not recieved..... (this is in the book of peter somewhere dont worry as if something strange is happening to you.................... for you are recieving the salvation of your soul..

Mate please accept this truth and dont worry its happenning to people all over the world...

 

[BillG]

So for you repentance is being carried. A sheep does not choose this, it is forced on them.
To talk of repentance like this is not biblical and shows your heart.

Good works are actions believers do to help others.
May the Lord forgive you. It is a wonder how you get to this odd theology.
The good Samaritan is Jesus's example of love for your neighbour.

People are so scared of just showing love, very odd, must be the none loving
version of faith, no light, no salt. Did Jesus say only worthy of being trampled
under foot?

We help because we love, and we love because of Jesus, Amen, Praise Him

Surely if the dumb sheep that wanders off could turn around off his own accord then Jesus would not have to go looking for him.


John 10:27-30
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.”

Now when said sheep has gone astray and Jesus hunts him down and in a sense says "Mate where are you" the dumb sheep hears his voice and calls out Jesus my shepherd I've wandered off but not sure if you will take me back.

Jesus then says "Come here mate, I will give you a piggy back"

The prodigal son when he hit rock bottom says "I need to back to the Father, maybe he will treat me as a servant" we all know the end of this story.

Now you may say the himself turned around, which is true but that does not negate what Jesus said

Luke 15:4-5


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

 

[Chris1975]

well, seemingly , your theology would state that the since the sheep wondered off, it was strictly up to the sheep to find it's way back to the Shepard. and it would die lost and go to hell, since it did not make it's way back.

so, what many of us try to tell you every day is that type of theology puts your salvation in your hands, up to the individual to keep it or lose it. when the lost sheep, lost coin, and other parables clearly show that we are saved by GRACE alone, apart from works.

And the prodigal son?

 

[Chris1975]

Can a person initially be saved without repentance? Strong's Greek: 3341. μετάνοια (metanoia) -- change of mind, repentance

Do you recall the following scriptures from John the Baptist and Jesus:
Matthew 3v3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Is it that repentance that saves you? No
Is that repentance necessary for the reception of the gospel by faith? Yes
Are you saved by Grace through faith? Yes

 

[JIMBO43]

You are the cake taker in these scenarios. It would have been faster for you to say, yes, you are right, but those words do not seem to be part of your vocabulary.

Ok well i dont see how coz just yesterday i was the cake Giver..

I just wonder if its at all possible that two people not engaged in any descusion and not remotely linked in any other discussion could post the exact same scripture at the exact same time.. on here...

I think you should be asking God how that happend..

And then maybe you might see me as a brother.. No one can come to the lord unless the father draws them..(remember).

But for now have a nice ride..[video=youtube;jX6TVRdCrFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6TVRdCrFU[/video]

 

[dcontroversal]

You know the bible is clear.....

IF salvation is of works then it is no longer grace......<---how hard is that to understand....this simple truth states clearly that is salvation is tied to works in any way, shape, form or fashion it is NO LONGER GRACE

The bible states that it is NOT by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to mercy has he saved us.<-----NOT BY WORKS, but according to a MERCIFUL ACT (MERCY) REFERENCE BOLDED ABOVE

In the grace you are, having been saved out of faith, it is the gift of GOD not of works lest any man should boast<---NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHIC WE HAVE DONE, but RATHER based upon GRACE and FAITH<---NO RIGHT TO BOAST and REFERENCE BOLDED ABOVE

PAUL was clear....ALL who mix FAITH and WORKS to gain, maintain, keep, facilitate salvation are considered foolish and deceived.....REFERENCE all the ABOVE

Jesus said the number before him that gets cast from his presence came BOASTING OF WONDERFUL WORKS in HIS NAME....
the same PEOPLE who reject the above verses while placing emphasis upon WORKS.....the number is PLENTEOUS

IF IT IS OF WORKS..IT IS NO LONGER GRACE.........

 

[BillG]

Works are not something that you allready possess works are an ongoing process....

Works are being prepared for you to do newly and daily.

Faith is also an ongoing process... Where by your measure of faith may increase...


You are recieving the salvation of your soul... and not recieved..... (this is in the book of peter somewhere dont worry as if something strange is happening to you.................... for you are recieving the salvation of your soul..

Mate please accept this truth and dont worry its happenning to people all over the world...

Hi Jimbo,

Can you explain for me "Where by your measure of faith may increase" what you interpret it to be/mean?

 

[Chris1975]

Can a person initially be saved without repentance? Strong's Greek: 3341. μετάνοια (metanoia) -- change of mind, repentance

Do you recall the following scriptures from John the Baptist and Jesus:
Matthew 3v3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Is it that repentance that saves you? No
Is that repentance necessary for the reception of the gospel by faith? Yes
Are you saved by Grace through faith? Yes

Now let's explore further. Since repentance was a necessity in terms of fertile field, what happens when you have a change of mind? You are no longer repentant? The sin and conviction therefrom which cut you to the heart before receiving Jesus.....now you consider this "no biggie" any longer. You then repent of your repentance.

You then begin to marginalise sin - the very thing that God has been dealing with man, from the Garden, to the Patriarchs, throughout the Law, to eventually coming Himself through Jesus Christ. The ultimate sacrifice.

You think God has changed? He changes not.