Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.
I would like to understand this a little better...
I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?
On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.
I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.
Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?
What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
Just a point not meant to argue with you. Pauls letters shouldnt be taken more than anything else in the Word. as peter says its easy to misconstrue His writings, paul needs to be taken in with everything else to have a better understanding. think of the 4 gospels why does Jesus Himself constantly equate what we do, say, believe, choose to the rest of What He is teaching? if were all just pre chosen some are hated others loved only based on What God wills........why even Give the word? why teach that we MUST accept Jesus, we MUST be born again, we Must keep His word?
" Pre destination" doesnt mean we can choose whatever we want to do and no matter what some will be saved and others cast into hell lol that Kind of makes God seem like a dictator and kind of says God favors one person over another without reason. Look at cain and abel God says this
Genesis 4:3-7 "
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
Why if cain was not "chosen or predestined" would God instruct Him on what He needed to do to be accepted? to disregard Our role as those who follow Jesus, tosses out so much of the word its crazy Look what Jesus says constantly to His disciples about whether they do the word, or just hear it. and also why if predestiantion eliminates every aspect of all of this did God Gove the first commandment in the garden to adam? was adam simply pre ordained and God was Just making a show and warning Him for no reason?
and what about the work of satan in this whole mosaic? the work that "Jesus cameto destroy" being the deception that lead to sin and death? you dont need to answer these questions but you should maybe consider if what a person does, matters to God or determine if you have the ability to choose at an intersection to turn right or left. Our old lives full of sin are there because Our hearts are evil its simple. the only solution to that imparted evil is the Gospel, the truth eliminates deception.
God isnt a puppetmaster and He doesnt save those who would rather follow thier own will, that is again, corrupted. He doesnt drag us kicking and screaming to salvation. Jesus is simply Gods arm extended to man who had cast away His Life because of sin, His hand is open for all to climb into.
Ithink what your seeing is more that God foresees everything, it doesnt mean we have no choice in our actions, it simply means He already Knows what we will choose to do with His offer. any person ever born can be saved, many will not accept salvation, but consider the rest of the things paul says about our actions and the result look how many times He says " if you follow the flesh you will die, if you put the flesh to death, you will live" or galatians 5, ephesians 5 when He is explaining that " those who live like this will not inherit eternal Life. " those who do these things ect.
its always a problem when we try to understand one chapter and that understanding eliminates the rest. I can probably give you 10 examples of paul likening a believers behavior to thier destiny. yes indeed we de[pend on Gods Mercy, But He gave his Son to great suffering, shame and death to purchase our lives.......we owe it to Jesus to give ours to Him. God Knows what well do. because He knows us at our core.
Think of all he says like "
