God hating you before you're born?

[BenFTW]

What Bible verses did you get this from?

He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He didn't just die for me, but everyone. Yet, He did die for me. Did not Christ die with the joy set before Him? What joy do you imagine that was? Reconciliation, between you and the Lord. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Where I'd argue the point would probably be Hebrews.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am afraid you chose one group of verses, only.

We all know that there are verses as you posted. But there are also other ones. The ones you probably do not like so much.

There are no verses in the Word that I do not like. They are for edification and reproof.What I do not like is people teaching something the Bible does not say. You have no answer for any of the verses I quoted,you dismiss them out of hand.It seems it is you who does not like certain verses of the Bible my friend.

 

[kaylagrl]

Its both. He died for everyone, individually, on a global scale.

Thank you for the rep brother. Be encouraged and keep sharing the truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah thats my bad, I looked up the topic and was doing some research when I came across that article and it had some good points but I didn't realize the source. I guess I've got to keep in mind to check the source, as that really is necessary. A lesson learned Thank you for pointing that out. In the future I suppose I should make sure to clarify what I may like about an article and whether or not the source is well rounded or not. As I said, had no clue who the man was.

That's commendable. Remember, test the Spirits. There are many false teachers out there.

 

[samuel23]

Joshua 24:4 and I (God) gave unto Esau mount Seir to possess it.

 

[resurrection33]

Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.

The Lord is just and loves us all. He is forgiving. You really can't lose with him.

 

[preacher4truth]

Joshua 24:4 and I (God) gave unto Esau mount Seir to possess it.

Because God is Savior both providentially to some and salvifically to those who believe: 1 Timothy 4:10.

 

[BeyondET]

God doesn't hate people, but the Sin not the Sinner.

 

[Issachar92]

God doesn't hate people, but the Sin not the Sinner.

Thats what gandhi teaches. "love the sinner hate the sin".
The truth is you cant separate sin from the sinner. Its all one and the same.
God is looking for righteous men and women to do work in today's wicked day and age. And his wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience.

 

[BeyondET]

Thats what gandhi teaches. "love the sinner hate the sin".
The truth is you cant separate sin from the sinner. Its all one and the same.
God is looking for righteous men and women to do work in today's wicked day and age. And his wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience.

Interesting, So what is your new self, born again, do you still have your old self which can't be separated from your new self?

 

[Willie-T]

Buscadora,

This goes back to a basic problema I sense you struggle with. And I want to talk a little about that.

"Did not God (Sus Dios) ask us to love our enemies as we love ourselves?"

You have said that you feel El Señor has placed within your heart, a "self-loathing." Is this correct? Do you think it is with that same emotion that He wants us to look at our enemies... who probably DESERVE to be 'loathed?

No, probably not. Think about that for a while. Do you think God expects us to endeavor and work to get ourselves 'right' before He will forgive us? Then, would it not stand to reason that our enemies would also have to come to us and restore our relationship before we could look upon them favorably?

To most Protestants, that answer would come just as quickly as it does to you. But, it would usually be a different answer. It is automatic for you to respond to your teaching with "Of course confession to a priest of the church, and the performance of that man's assigned repentance are necessary before I am able to return to fellowship with God." We don't find that in anything Jesus taught. (Well, MOST of us don't. There are still some trying to live part of the Law who will swear it is necessary...... that heavy guilt and desire to work our way into God's love isn't exclusive to Catholicism.)

And, if you spend some time, yourself, alone with the Bible, assessing the many times that Jesus forgave people and/or healed them (essentially the same thing), you will find He forgave BEFORE He gave any 'conditions.' And even then, those 'conditions' were just "Don't keep sinning." or, "See that you tell no one about this." He DID ask one time, if the person really wanted to be healed.

I'm saying way too much to just get across a simple point.

If God has no problem forgiving you when you have not earned Him doing so, and since you CAN'T earn that forgiveness, and never will be a good enough person to deserve it..... does it seem logical to loath what God loves? If you cannot love yourself, then how at you going to do what God asks a LOT more than He ever asked us to do Hail Mary's or Our Father's for an hour, and "love your enemy as yourself?"

 

[Willie-T]

Sorry. "at" = 'are' in that last sentence.

 

[Depleted]

Yeah? How so? The Hebrew in the text I cited means literally to hate. Plus, you add to the text by saying it's because Jacob did something. It's just not there. In fact, Paul makes a point of saying the opposite.

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

It blows my mind how dishonest people are when handling scripture.

I don't think it's always a case of dishonesty. We grow up in an age that teaches, "You can be anything you want to be." It's very hard to believe our lives are out of our hands. We have no control over what happens next, other than our behavior to whatever does happen next.

And then look how often our behavior gets out of hand. Ultimately, in a world where ME comes first, it's really hard to conceive, "No, God comes first."

It took me years to get there, and I'm not there yet all the time.

 

[Depleted]

Did God hate the cussing fisherman, or the murderer that was involved in killing Stephen, before they was borne? So many examples in bible of God loving people that didn't seem very loving. but God see's the hearts of those that He chooses.

Well, from what I see, only one guy involved in Stephen's murder did God choose to love. (Saul. Then he changed him into Paul.)

Sorry, don't know which cussing fisherman you refer to. He saved me. (I fished. I cuss. lol) But, I don't know if God ever chose Mr. Williams. (The man who rented us our fishing cabin and also guided people to good fishing on that lack. Quite the character. lol)

No, God predestines. He does not postdestine.

 

[trofimus]

There are no verses in the Word that I do not like. They are for edification and reproof.What I do not like is people teaching something the Bible does not say. You have no answer for any of the verses I quoted,you dismiss them out of hand.It seems it is you who does not like certain verses of the Bible my friend.

I do not "answer" your verses because I do not need to, I accept them all I am not sure what you mean by "you dismiss them".

But my context/picture of the whole grand scheme of things is probably very different from yours.

 

[Marano]

The fact that you feel that way might be God working in your hear already to bring you to true repentance and be saved, in my opinion all those who understand these truths of scripture and take it to heart will truly humble themselves before God and God will save them.

 

[Depleted]

I agree...this doctrine that God chooses people to hell on purpose violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and violates the nature and character of our loving Father. God hates everything that destroys those who He loves dearly. God hates the sin that is destroying people and deceiving them but He loves the people themselves.

We have a free will to choose Christ when we hear the message of Him.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Here Paul shows that God is the Savior of all men - especially of believers ( Why believers? because they chose to believe on Christ and received the forgiveness of sins - that is the gospel message to people.)

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Okay, Bruce. Let's reverse this. Is that a tuna in your hand? (Your avatar.) Sorry, I'm a freshwater fisherman, so don't know many saltwater fish with their heads still attached. lol

When did you believe you had that fish? Before you got it in the boat or after? (You fish, so surely you don't believe you caught a fish, before it's in the boat.)

Now. When do we believe God? Before we're in the boat, or after?

 

[Marano]

He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He didn't just die for me, but everyone. Yet, He did die for me. Did not Christ die with the joy set before Him? What joy do you imagine that was? Reconciliation, between you and the Lord. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Where I'd argue the point would probably be Hebrews.

If Jesus had died for everyone, everyone would be saved, scripture can't be taken out of context for it to mean that Jesus died for someone who spent their whole lives in sin and wanted nothing to do with Jesus or salvation, so that in hell they would claim Jesus died for them and paid the penalty for their sins, no sinner in hell can claim that.

 

[Depleted]

Starting to learn this, as I actually suffer from guilt and scruples and self-loathing I have to say it is true about Catholicism even when they teach mercy.

I also have to say that by the love of the Lord, I've been here for only 3 days and you are making me doubt already lolololol.

Martin Luther was a great Catholic. He even became a priest. Every time he sinned, he'd do penance. At first it was whipping his back. There are some long hard steps somewhere in Europe, that penitents would take on their knees. The steps were so long and so hard, by the time they were on the top step, the steps were bloody from their knees. But Martin didn't ever feel forgiven even after he did that.

He went to Rome to get some advice from the pope at the time. Being a priest, this was quite the pilgrimage, since he couldn't afford the luxury trip. Didn't help him any because he found the pope in an orgie.

He felt so absolutely defeated. No matter how many penances he did, it just didn't cover his sins. And the other priest were annoyed with him, because he went to confession every time he sinned. Worse yet, he knew he wasn't doing a good enough job with the first commandment, so he went to confession to confess his last confession.

There was only one other place he could go. The Bible. So he read it. And Romans changed everything. There really is nothing we can do to deserve God's mercy. Absolutely nothing. He wasn't wrong for confessing his confession. We're that bad.

And then there is God.

That's what Romans is all about.

 

[Depleted]

You really do have a bone to pick don't you? I did some research, but still not enough to be able to define terms. What is your problem? You seem exceptionally aggressive, forget passive, this morning.

I'm always aggressive. Kind of why why I don't defend myself. It's not everyone else. It's me. I don't play the victim part.

But really? You are still making claims what you did, when it is evident you did not. You claim you weren't hoodwinked. For Pete's sake! How do you know you weren't hoodwinked by an open theist while you're still claiming you don't know what an open theist is?

And how is that anyone else's fault when you won't find out what it is, to see if you've been hoodwinked? Meanwhile, you're still trusting the dude, even not knowing what his angle is. Worse yet, you're trying to convince others to trust him.

I'd rather be aggressive than passive-aggressive. The only differences is I don't blame it on everyone else to make myself look good.

Be aggressive! I think it suits you. You ARE aggressive, but hide behind the passive/victim junk. Just don't play the victim card. And more important -- listen sometimes. Not always, because who can maintain that either? Just sometimes. On purpose.