Son's of God Genesis 6:1-8

[samuel23]

Hey OH, You seem like a nice enough guy, but you are trying to use the bible to prove something that you want to believe in when the bible itself disagrees with you, the biblical evidence is against you not for you in this issue.

 

[trofimus]

What you are missing in Gen 6 is the fact that the Nephalim were already in the land. They were not the result of a union between angels and women. Read verse 4. "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."

Yes, the genes will not disappear in the next generation. What is important is the fact that the giants were not present before the sons of God took the daughters of Adam.

What on earth translation are you reading from?

NIV, it was the first one google gave me.

If you are attempting to quote from the LXX, you are misquoting it.

LXX has: Καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἡ ἡμέρα αὕτη, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἦλθον οἱ ἄγγελοι τοῦ Θεοῦ παραστῆναι ἐνώπιον τοῦ Κυρίου
English: ...the angels of God came...

So it would not be misquoting.

[/I]You still have not answered my questions. Do you believe that the term 'sons of God' cannot be applied to the sons of Seth because they were wicked?
Do you believe that the 'sons of God' in Job 1 & 2 and Gen 6 are both speaking of angels?

Really? I think I answered them... do you expect some specific point in my response?

As I said, I do not believe that it can not be interpreted as the line of Seth, even Augustin thought that. I just think it is very unlikely, against the context, against Jude, extrabiblical sources etc.

Yes, I believe that Job 1 and 2 are about angels.

 

[trofimus]

34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"

How does this verse say they were not angels?

 

[oldhermit]

How does this verse say they were not angels?

Look at the complete verse from Psa 82:6 "I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High." The same ones whom God called gods - the judges in Israel, are the same ones God called "sons of the Most High."

 

[oldhermit]

Yes, the genes will not disappear in the next generation. What is important is the fact that the giants were not present before the sons of God took the daughters of Adam.

That is not what the text says. Just read it. It says, "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."
Even the LXX translation agrees. "Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown."

NIV, it was the first one google gave me.

The NIV is not a translation, it is a paraphrase that takes far too many liberties with the text in both testaments. Find yourself a good reliable translation. I would recommend the ASV. It is probably the most literal of the English translations.

LXX has: Καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἡ ἡμέρα αὕτη, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἦλθον οἱ ἄγγελοι τοῦ Θεοῦ παραστῆναι ἐνώπιον τοῦ Κυρίου
English: ...the angels of God came...So it would not be misquoting.

Can you show me the link you are using to find the Greek LXX. I do not have one and I am not going to try to find my copy of the LXX.

Yes, I believe that Job 1 and 2 are about angels.

Do you believe that Gen 6 is about angels?

 

[trofimus]

Look at the complete verse from Psa 82:6 "I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High." The same ones whom God called gods - the judges in Israel, are the same ones God called "sons of the Most High."

Why do you think that those judges were not angels? Why do you think they were in Israel only?

 

[oldhermit]

Why do you think that those judges were not angels? Why do you think they were in Israel only?

Because Jesus told these Jews, "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken)." I do not know how much clearer he could have made this point.

 

[trofimus]

That is not what the text says. Just read it. It says, "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown."
Even the LXX translation agrees. "Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown."

I have no problem with the fact that giants were on the earth when the sons of God took the daughters of Adam and after that.

What is important - that they were not on the earth before that.

Or do I miss something in English?

The NIV is not a translation, it is a paraphrase that takes far too many liberties with the text in both testaments. Find yourself a good reliable translation. I would recommend the ASV. It is probably the most literal of the English translations.

Ok, I do not use English translations, I copy them only for the discussions on the CC.

Can you show me the link you are using to find the Greek LXX. I do not have one and I am not going to try to find my copy of the LXX.

Septuagint Old Testament Bilingual (Greek / English) - 1

Its from the Greek orthodox church. But beware, the numbers of Psalms are not the same as in English Bibles.

Psalm 82 about gods is Psalm 81 in the LXX.

Do you believe that Gen 6 is about angels?

Yes. It is not the same belief like "do you believe Christ rose from the dead", you know. But I really think they were angels.

 

[trofimus]

Because Jesus told these Jews, "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken)." I do not know how much clearer he could have made this point.

I think I see your point.

I see it this way:

"Is it not written in your law,"
- i.e. you can read it yourself in your holy books

"I said, ye are gods?"
- quotation of the psalm, no solution who "ye" are

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came"
- them = angels, the word of God = the message for the angels, not the Mosaic Law

 

[popeye]

Morning Popeye,

Yeah, I'm sure that he does, but I just prefer to do my own studies and come to my own conclusions. The scriptures that we have in Genesis and Job point to the sons of God as referring to angels and not the offspring of mankind. There is a noticeable distinction between the two within the scripture.

Teachers are good. We all need each other.
We are a body,and no one person has a complete revelation.

By rejecting all teachers we do our own self a disservice.

I check out what I hear. Catch them wrong sometimes

 

[oldhermit]

I have no problem with the fact that giants were on the earth when the sons of God took the daughters of Adam and after that.

What is important - that they were not on the earth before that.

Or do I miss something in English?

What do you think he means when he says, "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came..."

Septuagint Old Testament Bilingual (Greek / English) - 1

Its from the Greek orthodox church. But beware, the numbers of Psalms are not the same as in English Bibles.

Psalm 82 about gods is Psalm 81 in the LXX.

AND it came to pass when men began to be numerous upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore [children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown. 5 And the Lord God, having seen that the wicked actions of men were multiplied upon the earth, and that every one in his heart was intently brooding over evil continually, 6 then God laid it to heart that he had made man upon the earth, and he pondered [it] deeply. 7 And God said, I will blot out man whom I have made from the face of the earth, even man with cattle, and reptiles with flying creatures of the sky, for I am grieved that I have made them. 8 But Noe found grace before the Lord God. 9 And these [are] the generations of Noe. Noe was a just man; being perfect in his generation, Noe was well-pleasing to God. 10 And Noe begot three sons, Sem, Cham, Japheth. 11 But the earth was corrupted before God, and the earth was filled with iniquity. [TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="width: 50%"] [h=3]ΚΑΙ ἐγένετο ἡνίκα ἤρξαντο οἱ ἄνθρωποι πολλοὶ γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ θυγατέρες ἐγεννήθησαν αὐτοῖς. 2 ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅτι καλαί εἰσιν, ἔλαβον ἑαυτοῖς γυναῖκας ἀπὸ πασῶν, ὧν ἐξελέξαντο. 3 καὶ εἶπε Κύριος ὁ Θεός· οὐ μὴ καταμείνῃ τὸ πνεῦμά μου ἐν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις τούτοις εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα διὰ τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς σάρκας, ἔσονται δὲ αἱ ἡμέραι αὐτῶν ἑκατὸν εἴκοσιν ἔτη. 4 οἱ δὲ γίγαντες ἦσαν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις· καὶ μετ᾿ ἐκεῖνο, ὡς ἂν εἰσεπορεύοντο οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ πρὸς τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ ἐγεννῶσαν ἑαυτοῖς· ἐκεῖνοι ἦσαν οἱ γίγαντες οἱ ἀπ᾿ αἰῶνος, οἱ ἄνθρωποι οἱ ὀνομαστοί. 5 ᾿Ιδὼν δὲ Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὅτι ἐπληθύνθησαν αἱ κακίαι τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ πᾶς τις διανοεῖται ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ ἐπιμελῶς ἐπὶ τὰ πονηρὰ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας, 6 καὶ ἐνεθυμήθη ὁ Θεὸς ὅτι ἐποίησε τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ διενοήθη. 7 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεός· ἀπαλείψω τὸν ἄνθρωπον, ὃν ἐποίησα ἀπὸ προσώπου τῆς γῆς, ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπου ἕως κτήνους καὶ ἀπό ἑρπετῶν ἕως πετεινῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, ὅτι μετεμελήθην ὅτι ἐποίησα αὐτούς. 8 Νῶε δὲ εὗρε χάριν ἐναντίον Κυρίου τοῦ Θεοῦ. 9 Αὗται δὲ αἱ γενέσεις Νῶε· Νῶε ἄνθρωπος δίκαιος, τέλειος ὢν ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ αὐτοῦ· τῷ Θεῷ εὐηρέστησε Νῶε. 10 ἐγέννησε δὲ Νῶε τρεῖς υἱούς, τὸν Σήμ, τὸν Χάμ, τὸν ᾿Ιάφεθ. 11 ἐφθάρη δὲ ἡ γῆ ἐναντίον τοῦ Θεοῦ, καὶ ἐπλήσθη ἡ γῆ ἀδικίας.[/h][/TD]
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I read through both the English translation and the Greek text. The word angels appears nowhere in the English translation nor did I find the word ἄγγελοι or any form of the word in the Greek text portion. It only says οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ - sons of God. What you also need to be made aware of is that there are differences in the different LXX texts. Some more reliable than others. The NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint) is probably one of the best English translation of the LXX but I am not really sure which LXX is the best Greek text and I do not know which LXX Greek text this was taken from.

Yes. It is not the same belief like "do you believe Christ rose from the dead", you know. But I really think they were angels.

Ok, Do you believe that the term 'sons of God' could not have applied to the sons of Seth because they were also wicked as has been previously suggested on this thread?

 

[trofimus]

What do you think he means when he says, "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came..."

"Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown."

I think this text means - "In those times, when the sons of God came... there were giants. And also after that (next generations, their sons, grandsons etc)."

The text also specifies that the giants were the children of those women and of the sons of God, so if there were any giants before, they were not this kind of giants.

I read through both the English translation and the Greek text. The word angels appears nowhere in the English translation nor did I find the word ἄγγελοι or any form of the word in the Greek text portion.

Yes. Somebody said that the LXX has "angels" in Gen 6?

. The NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint) is probably one of the best English translation of the LXX but I am not really sure which LXX is the best Greek text and I do not know which LXX Greek text this was taken from.

The web - traditional church text of the OT from the Greek church. I.E. something like the byzantine majority text in the NT. The version used by the church from generation to generation.

NETS - critical edition, not used in the church. I.E. something like Nestlé Aland in the NT.

Ok, Do you believe that the term 'sons of God' could not have applied to the sons of Seth because they were also wicked as has been previously suggested on this thread?

Ok, I will respond for the 3rd time I do not believe that it can not be seen this way. I believe it is just highly unlikely.

======

My question for you: Where are demons from?

 

[oldhermit]

I think I see your point.

I see it this way:

"Is it not written in your law,"
- i.e. you can read it yourself in your holy books

"I said, ye are gods?"
- quotation of the psalm, no solution who "ye" are

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came"
- them = angels, the word of God = the message for the angels, not the Mosaic Law

I really think you know better than that. The Word of God did not come to angels, it came to men. The entire defense Jesus used against the Jews who were accusing Jesus of blasphemy for claiming divine title hinged on the fact that, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus then appeals to the 82nd Psalm. “God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, “You are gods,(Who are the gods in question. they are those of his congregation whom God had appointed to judge his people and who had become corrupt is their judgments) and all of you are sons of the Most High. “Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who possesses all the nations.”

 

[trofimus]

Note: Augustin says that the translation of Aquila has "the sons of Gods" instead of "the sons of God".

If it is of someone's interest.

 

[trofimus]

I really think you know better than that. The Word of God did not come to angels, it came to men.

So God never talks to angels...? Also, I am not sure why you use the capital "W".

If they were men (the ones the Psalm is about) why to say that they will die like men?

 

[oldhermit]

"Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown."

I think this text means - "In those times, when the sons of God came... there were giants. And also after that (next generations, their sons, grandsons etc)."

The text also specifies that the giants were the children of those women and of the sons of God, so if there were any giants before, they were not this kind of giants.

Good. This is absolutely correct. The giants were already in the land and these 'sons of God' (regardless of who you take this to be) took daughters of THESE and the line of the Nephilim continued. The presence of the 'sons of God' were not causal to the appearance of the Nephilim, they were incidental to it.

Yes. Somebody said that the LXX has "angels" in Gen 6?
The web - traditional church text of the OT from the Greek church. I.E. something like the byzantine majority text in the NT. The version used by the church from generation to generation.

I know. I keep seeing that but no one has provided the Greek text from which they claim to have gotten this quote. But, I can assure you, this translation does not come from any copy of the byzantine text I have ever seen.

Ok, I will respond for the 3rd time I do not believe that it can not be seen this way. I believe it is just highly unlikely.

Ok. Here is the point I want you to consider.
The passages in Job are used to argue that 'sons of God' can only refer to fallen angels. Jude 6-7 is then tortured to make it say that the sin of those fallen angels was that of sexual immorality. THEN they claim that because 'sons of God' in Job 1 & 2 refers to angels this also means that 'sons of God' in Gen 6 must also refer to angels. The argument is then made that the sons of Seth cannot be the 'sons of God' because they were evil. If the sons of Seth cannot be 'sons of God' because they were evil, then by what possible rule of interpretation does not claim that fallen angels are 'sons of God' EVEN THOUGH they were evil.
======

My question for you: Where are demons from?

I really not not know what this has to do with Gen 6.

 

[valiant]

Because Jesus told these Jews, "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken)." I do not know how much clearer he could have made this point.

lol argument very weak your and ye are expressing two different types. Jesus was referring to beings other than God being described as gods, not to men. The word of God came to angels as well as men.

 

[oldhermit]

So God never talks to angels...? Also, I am not sure why you use the capital "W".

If they were men (the ones the Psalm is about) why to say that they will die like men?

Because they were men. He has already established this point because they were part of "His own congregation" of whom he asks, "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?" Because of their defilement of justice among God's people God will show no partiality to them. They will die just like everyone else.

 

[oldhermit]

I think I see your point.

I see it this way:

"Is it not written in your law,"
- i.e. you can read it yourself in your holy books

"I said, ye are gods?"
- quotation of the psalm, no solution who "ye" are

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came"
- them = angels, the word of God = the message for the angels, not the Mosaic Law

Understand, God is not charging angels with judging his people unjustly. He is charging men who were appointed as judges in Israel with this failing. This is exactly the same thing we seen in Isaiah 1 and Jer 23.

 

[oldhermit]

Understand, God is not charging angels with judging his people unjustly. He is charging men who were appointed as judges in Israel with this failing. This is exactly the same thing we seen in Isaiah 1 and Jer 23.

trofimus, I am going to ask a simple question and I want you to give me an honest answer. Why is it so important to you that 'son of God' in either Gen 6 or in Job be angels? There has to be some reason behind this insistence.