Calvinists,Im Asking...

[ForthAngel]

The heart and mind of man is not designed by God to trust in "such a being" that would on purpose say that certain ones have been destined by God Himself to be in hell ( How ever that turns out to be like in the end ). This is a major violation of the true nature and character of God to begin with.

And by the way, you have the same dilemma. God created everything knowing billions would go to hell, but created it anyway, on purpose. At what point do we stop answering back to God and submit ourselves to him in trust and obedience instead.

 

[lonestar26]

And by the way, you have the same dilemma. God created everything knowing billions would go to hell, but created it anyway, on purpose. At what point do we stop answering back to God and submit ourselves to him in trust and obedience instead.

Hell was never created for man.

 

[Ariel82]

John Wesley didn't fully support all of the Arminian theology.

Just a side note. He did believe in Total depravity.

 

[Depleted]

I wonder, how many Calvinists here read the Institution of the Christian Religion by Calvin?

If almost nobody, "reformed" will be a better term for them, then

Why? Because I'm a Boice/Spurgeon level, and I'm supposed to be Calvin level? I also don't get Boettner, Owens, and Van Til. Does that put me in some kind of lesser bracket?

Hubby read Institutes. I was glad when he was done. He kind of gets judgmental when he reads certain authors.

 

[Depleted]

Matthew 1:21New International Version (NIV)

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a]because he will save his people from their sins.”

It says Jesus saves His people from their sins? If he saved all people from all their sins this verse wouldn't make sense, Christ's sacrifice at calvary effectively paid in full the price for the sins of His people.

Note in this verse His people are not only the jews since we know the gentiles are counted among the elect too and that's the meaning of the whole world, jews and gentiles, because the jews at the time thought salvation was for the jews only.

So if you bring up John 3:16 you need to bring the context of it too.

Don't let them distract the purpose of this thread.

 

[valiant]

Hell was never created for man.

perfectly true. But man goes there anyway. And God knew he would from the beginning. Or don't you think He knew?

 

[Depleted]

You know it's inevitable.

Not if we don't play the game. (Ignore the ones who just like going off on anyone who isn't one of them.)

 

[kaylagrl]

How do you feel about the word Arminian? "Calvinist" is something like that word. It started out as an insult, but turned into the word most people understand for what we believe. Now we're somewhere between wondering if we're being insulted, or if the person just doesn't know the other word.

Same thing with Arminian. (Doubly complicated, because I never remember which word means people who think a particular way or people who live in Armenia. One little letter confuses me.) It too started out as a slam. Now it's the word people know the best, even if they don't know what it means. Somehow another, I keep thinking "Wesleyan" is a better word, because of no insult intended, but I don't know if most people who believe in free will salvation understand it is a concept from Wesley.

And, honestly, I would use Wesleyan more often so that one little letter doesn't trip me (and my spellchecker) up all the time.

But Forth got that right. We do cringe at Calvinists a bit, mostly because we're not as nuts as it seems we ought to be. Calvin got stuff wrong. We don't follow him. We follow Christ through Reformed Theology. Just as you follow Christ through Wesleyan Theology.

As for changing denominations? The problem is not all Baptists are reformed. Not all Lutherans are reformed. Not all Presbyterians are reformed. And some that are reformed aren't any of those. I'm Presbyterian because hubby discovered James Boice happened to be the Teaching Elder at a local church. He (we) like James Boise (who has since died) and agree with his teachings, so that's where we went. Why keep looking once you found where you belong?

I don't know which Baptists are reformed, or which Lutherans. I'm not against any church that teaches Christ in a doctrinal position all Christians should have, but I'd be a menace to a church that also doesn't hold onto Reformed Theology. Truly, would you want me as a member of your church? We may love each other, but we'd drive each other nuts over theology. lol

It really helps to keep to a church that fits your theology.

(And back to busy day, so it might take me a bit to catch up.)

Yes,I would want in my church.Steel sharpens steel. We'd fight it out and we'd either both be reformed or both be Pentecostal. rofl. Oddly enough I attend a church that use to be the Christian Church,I think thats what it was,anyway the kind that don't believe in music. Well the congregation kicked out that pastor and a pastor friend of ours became their pastor.We were the first group to sing in that church for like decades but we didnt attend there at the time. So my pastor is Pentecostal,like I am. He believes in tongues but doesn't preach it. The people love this pastor and have accepted us knowing we are all Pentecostal. And my hubby was raised Baptist,but not Calvinist. HA!

​Armenian or Arminian either term is lost on me. I must say I have heard these terms and have a vague idea of some of them. But I must say I haven't got it in my pocket like Marano. I do believe in pre-trib and baptism as an adult but I dont believe baptism saves you. As to the other,Im not sure what name I fall under.Im rather complicated you know.

 

[Ariel82]

Ok so free will,where do we all stand on that.Im guessing Im going to get several different answers on this one.

I know you want Calvinist, but wanted to pipe in on this one.

Do United Methodists believe “once saved, always saved” or can we “lose our salvation”? - The United Methodist Church

Arminius, like Calvin and all of classical Christianity, affirmed that there is nothing humans can do to initiate salvation. Only God can do this, and God does so unconditionally, and for all, not just a limited number of the pre-selected. Christ's saving activity in his life, death and resurrection was thus potentially effective for all. Only faith, which is an exercise of our will, under the influence of divine grace, is required of us. Such faith and responsiveness to God grace, revealed in our works, but not caused by them, keeps us "in grace." This means it is possible for us to "fall from grace," a phrase he borrows from verses in Hebrews 6 and 10, by not sustaining our faith. A lapse in our works can be a sign, but again is not a cause, of such a fall from grace. The consequences, if our error is not corrected, can be spiritual death and eternity in Hell.

Though perhaps the most popular publication John Wesley produced during his lifetime was called "The Arminian," he sharply disagreed with Arminius on one point. Arminius had concluded that if a person had fallen from grace and into a state of spiritual death after having had an experience of conversion (whether that was understood to have occurred through baptism or to be heightened or awakened in a personal experience or affirmation later in life) there was no further hope for salvation. Wesley rejected this. Both experience and scripture told him otherwise. He addressed this at greatest length in his sermon, "A Call to Backsliders."

 

[ForthAngel]

Hell was never created for man.

And? God has exhaustive foreknowledge, unless you don't believe that.

 

[trofimus]

Why? Because I'm a Boice/Spurgeon level, and I'm supposed to be Calvin level? I also don't get Boettner, Owens, and Van Til. Does that put me in some kind of lesser bracket?

Hubby read Institutes. I was glad when he was done. He kind of gets judgmental when he reads certain authors.

Only if you consider "Reformed" to be on a lower level than "Calvinist". For me, the more general group the better ;-)

 

[kaylagrl]

...vegetables!

I just had watermelon,thats a fruit...or is it a vegetable?

 

[trofimus]

I just had watermelon,thats a fruit...or is it a vegetable?

I do not know And Calvin says nothing about it in the Institutes...

But I will respond according to my recent habit: "Its both!"

 

[Grace777x70]

And by the way, you have the same dilemma. God created everything knowing billions would go to hell, but created it anyway, on purpose. At what point do we stop answering back to God and submit ourselves to him in trust and obedience instead.

This has nothing to do with God on purpose choosing certain people to go to hell. The heart of man is not designed by God to trust in such a being that would do this. The scriptures are full of verses telling us that in one way or other that - God so loved the world that He gave His son that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life."

It is a complete violation of the gospel and of the very nature of God that He on purpose chooses certain people to go to hell for all of eternity because He chose them to go there.

This ungodly teaching that God on purpose has chosen people by His own will certain ones to go to hell is one of the reasons why some people reject the religion of Christianity. They know within themselves that such a being is evil and their heart will not trust such an evil thing as that thought.

They are not really rejecting God - they are rejecting what some are projecting as "being God". But the Lord will be faithful to them and reveal His love and grace to them. I believe He will be caught in the act of being His true self to them all.

Until then I will proclaim that "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved - you and your household" - just like Paul had the boldness to do.

 

[Depleted]

So I will admit I have a lot of misunderstandings. I was not trying to accuse you or put words in your mouth. So Im going to try and word my questions differently or just ask is this what you mean or not.

Now the TULIP belief is totally new to me.Heard it here first.I have Calvinist friends and never heard this talked about. Shoot I have a pastor friend of the family and we attend his church on special events and never heard the TULIP theology.

You're going to have to go slow with me here. I googled ammileanist and found nothing.Can you give me an answer to that?


Id agree with you in Baptism.I haven't been to many churches that agree with child baptism other than Catholic or the United Church,which is in Canada but Im not sure if they are in the US.


We'd agree on the gifts too,as I am Pentecostal,but I believe it must be done in order.I wouldn't agree with a lot that goes on in all lot of Pentecostal churches,and there are many independent types of churches that can basically be a free for all. I disagree with those.

Hey! We agree there too.I really hated science in school. I think I was intimidated by it. A few years ago I began reading a lot of apologist materials and I think I believe in young earth also.

I understand there are differing beliefs,as I said with Pentecost,people think I agree with certain things that I do not believe. United Pentecostal is almost totally different from what I believe.

Reformed Theology isn't eschatology, and it isn't gifts, it isn't when to baptize, and it isn't a whole lot of other things. Many Reformers are big on succession of the gifts, but that isn't what connects us. In that way, we're pretty much like everyone else, some believe in tongues, some don't, some believe in amilennialism, some in post, some in rapture, some not, some in baptizing infants, some not, some in deaconesses, some not, etc. All the side issues are pretty much the same side issues everyone else has.

That stuff isn't really what we're about. It's what we like to argue over. lol

 

[valiant]

I gotta find this book that says Christ died only for the elect because it seems as of today no such thing exist.

In theory it might not be so, but in practise it is so. Christ's death is for all, but it is only effective for the elect.

Eph 1.4-14 and 1 Peter 1.2 are examples of it. Also Rm 9.

Consider also 'the elect obtained it, the rest were blinded (Rom 11.5-6).

 

[ForthAngel]

This has nothing to do with God on purpose choosing certain people to go to hell. The heart of man is not designed by God to trust in such a being that would do this. The scriptures are full of verses telling us that in one way or other that - God so loved the world that He gave His son that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life."

It is a complete violation of the gospel and of the very nature of God that He on purpose chooses certain people to go to hell for all of eternity because He chose them to go there.

This ungodly teaching that God on purpose has chosen people by His own will certain ones to go to hell is one of the reasons why some people reject the religion of Christianity. They know within themselves that such a being is evil and their heart will not trust such an evil thing as that thought.

They are not really rejecting God - they are rejecting what some are projecting as "being God". But the Lord will be faithful to them and reveal His love and grace to them. I believe He will be caught in the act of being His true self to them all.

Until then I will proclaim that "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved - you and your household" - just like Paul had the boldness to do.

This is the kind of misrepresentation that causes all the strife. If you aren't going to look at what we believe and truthfully represent it, then you have nothing to add. None of us have said that God chooses anyone for hell except those who are disobedient and deserve it. Guess what? That's all of mankind. It's what makes grace so amazing. Deal with it.

 

[Depleted]

I believe most reformed are ammileanist, ammileanism says the kingdom of Christ is in the present age already, so what's left is Jesus to come back and take us to heaven, revelation is going on since Christ ascended to heaven, and the millenium reign of Christ on earth isn't literal.

There are postmileniasts also, I myself am a non dispensationalist post trib rapture premileanist.

It would be better if a brother who believes in ammileanism explained to you how and why they believe what they believe, because I don't think I nearly covered everything they believe. I supposed there are some here who whold to that position.

Nope. Not the ones I know. The ones I know cross the board on End Times. And yet, End Times isn't preached at all. I, personally, think we're still here only because the Lord has yet to save all the people he intends to save. Most of Revelation has already happened. And, although we are in God's kingdom already, the new heavens and earth will be The Kingdom. (I think I fit into, "P. None of the above." But I could argue that one for hours with fellow Reformers.)

 

[Grace777x70]

This is the kind of misrepresentation that causes all the strife. If you aren't going to look at what we believe and truthfully represent it, then you have nothing to add. None of us have said that God chooses anyone for hell except those who are disobedient and deserve it. Guess what? That's all of mankind. It's what makes grace so amazing. Deal with it.

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?

 

[ForthAngel]

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?

Let me make this simple.

Man = evil
God = good
God saves some man = grace
God no save other man = hell for that man