Calvinists,Im Asking...

[ForthAngel]

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?

I'll try and be serious and answer your question. What you are talking about is double predestination. I only know of one person who believes that, the rest of us don't. Mankind is responsible for their own sins. God in his grace chose to save some to display his grace and mercy, and chose not to save others to display his justice and wrath.

 

[preacher4truth]

And by the way, you have the same dilemma. God created everything knowing billions would go to hell, but created it anyway, on purpose. At what point do we stop answering back to God and submit ourselves to him in trust and obedience instead.

BINGO! It's "the Romans 9:20 man." Professing believers are unafraid to answer back to God and challenge His Sovereignty and accuse by implication of unfairness. Much easier to see God as a bellhop or genie with false covetous gospels (WoF/Prosperity) than to allow the true attributes of God shine through from Scripture. That way man is still in charge of God by his faith and "words" and God must obey if they speak "words of faith."

Ridiculously unbelievable bro!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So I will admit I have a lot of misunderstandings. I was not trying to accuse you or put words in your mouth. So Im going to try and word my questions differently or just ask is this what you mean or not.

Now the TULIP belief is totally new to me.Heard it here first.I have Calvinist friends and never heard this talked about. Shoot I have a pastor friend of the family and we attend his church on special events and never heard the TULIP theology.

You're going to have to go slow with me here. I googled ammileanist and found nothing.Can you give me an answer to that?


Id agree with you in Baptism.I haven't been to many churches that agree with child baptism other than Catholic or the United Church,which is in Canada but Im not sure if they are in the US.


We'd agree on the gifts too,as I am Pentecostal,but I believe it must be done in order.I wouldn't agree with a lot that goes on in all lot of Pentecostal churches,and there are many independent types of churches that can basically be a free for all. I disagree with those.

Hey! We agree there too.I really hated science in school. I think I was intimidated by it. A few years ago I began reading a lot of apologist materials and I think I believe in young earth also.

I understand there are differing beliefs,as I said with Pentecost,people think I agree with certain things that I do not believe. United Pentecostal is almost totally different from what I believe.

Child baptism isnt the same as saving baptism.

Its a ceremony where the parents agree with God and witnesses to raise the infant up in a Christian home. And praying for God to help them in that journey so that the child will hopefully grow up to except Christ.

Scripture on ones faith saving his family if of course they also except Jesus Acts 16:31.

The child statistically if started out on the right foundation will except Jesus and continue in faith.

 

[notmyown]

I just had watermelon,thats a fruit...or is it a vegetable?

(side note) if it starts with a flower, it's a fruit.

like cucumbers, pumpkin, squash and peppers.

i know, right? who knew?

 

[notuptome]

Child baptism isnt the same as saving baptism.

Its a ceremony where the parents agree with God and witnesses to raise the infant up in a Christian home. And praying for God to help them in that journey so that the child will hopefully grow up to except Christ.

Scripture on ones faith saving his family if of course they also except Jesus Acts 16:31.

The child statistically if started out on the right foundation will except Jesus and continue in faith.

Calvin and Arminius both supported baptizing babies.

Hyper-Calvinists teach that babies when they die are condemned depending on their election.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

(side note) if it starts with a flower, it's a fruit.

like cucumbers, pumpkin, squash and peppers.

i know, right? who knew?

Don't forget the tomato. Also a fruit. Fruit has seeds in it. Just like Christians we contain the seed of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ariel82]

I just had watermelon,thats a fruit...or is it a vegetable?

If it has seeds inside, it's scientifically labeled a fruit.

Any other part of the plant is a veggie.(roots, leaves, stems,etc.)

 

[Desertsrose]

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?

Hi G7,

My husband and I were in a Calvinist church for awhile. They called themselves Calvinist or Reformed. But said they were essentially Calvinist which meant they accepted the whole TULIP.

But we baptized adults and not children and the governmental body was a little different, but everything else was total Calvinism.

Within Calvinism, no that would not be accurate. It isn't whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord - it's only those whom God has elected before the creation of the world.

The thinking is that mankind is so depraved that there is no good within them to even be able to call out to God. So God has to do it for them.

In my understanding of scripture, it's kind of backwards from what we read in scripture.....the Calvinist believes God has to give you the new birth before you can call on the name of the Lord.

 

[notmyown]

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jn 3:3

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?

Let me make this simple.

Man = evil
God = good
God saves some man = grace
God no save other man = hell for that man

So, in reality -God does choose certain ones to go to hell then - they do not get to choose?

This belief says that "God in his grace chose to save some to display his grace and mercy, and chose not to save others to display his justice and wrath. "

That is God choosing for those people to go to hell because they have no choice in the matter.

They are "not allowed" to chose Christ's sacrifice for their sins even though He took away the sins of the world. That is a major violation of the gospel message that "Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".

That is no even close to the gospel message.

 

[Desertsrose]

This may seem like an odd question but do you believe the Jews are chosen people? Or how do Calvinists view that? or Reformed.

The church that we went to believed in Replacement Theology. Many Calvinists believe that the church has replaced any and all promises made to the Jews. So it's the church now and Jews are not a chosen people anymore.

 

[Johnny_B]

Quote "no double election for me"

Ok,I need an explanation here!!

​Sure, it is that God choses those for heaven and for hell, the OT says that God does not delight in the death of the wicked. So some say that here in Romans 9:19-24 proves that God elects for hell.

"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

Because of what these verses are saying in 19-21 after 9:14-18 talking about God harding whom He will and have compassion on whom He will. 19-21 in 19 he set up hypotheticals, 20-21 he give a real reaction to those hypotheticals. 22 he is setting up another hypothetical, in "What of God" with 23 being the rest of the hypothetical, when he says "even us" in 24 here where people say that it not hypothetical, because we are real, but it's just to add impact to the hypothetical. Now I used to believe that this was proof of double election. Until my reading of the Scriptures and a debate with a member here on foreknowledge and predestination. She posted some Scriptures that helped my see that double predestination/election is not Biblical. Here's what she posted and I for the life of me can't think of her name, I actually thanks her for she me the Scriptures. The sad part is I haven't seen her post since then, her handle was p_____believer, here are the Scriptures in Context.

I Timothy 2:1-6 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

The context is prayer for all people, Paul gives the guidelines, then in 4 he gives the reason, God's desire is that all would be saved and have the knowledge of the truth, verse 6 He gave Himself a ransom for all, which is the testimony at the proper time. That got me thinking what does that mean, testimony given at the right time? Then one day I was reading through the book of John of course 1:12-13 sets up the context of the book so that wherever it says, they believed or received, it was by the will of God. I got to chapter 3 with 3:3 already in mind " unless one is born again he can not see the kingdom of heaven" know that if God does not cause you to be born again you can not understand the kingdom, then I get to 16 and want to understand it better as I'm reading 16-21 I see it.

“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” See the [i] after world, it's for the footnote which says, For this is how God loved the world.

So I read on, because of course 3:16 was not a stumbling stone but it made me wonder, then that shows me that God's love is for the elect/Church and His love to the world is in Him giving His Son. That's not the same as Christ dying for the Church/elect John 10:11, 15, Ephesians 5:25, Galatians 1:3-5 and others that say that Christ gave himself for us the Church/elect He lay down His life for the sheep or He loved us and died for us, us being the Church/elect. Still thinking God double elected 3:17 that the world might​ be saved, not would be saved. Then 18 they were condemned already this that did not believe, so God was not predestining them to hell, because they were condemned already. verse 19 why? because they loved darkness rather that the light (Jesus). Verse 20 and they hated the light (Jesus) that's why they were going to be judged to eternal punishment, not because God chose them to go to hell. Verse 20 some it all up, after why people were not elect to hell, why people came to the light (Jesus), because God did it for them or how the HCSB puts it “accomplished by God.” or John 1:12-13

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

So John 3:16-21 tells the full story of God's election, how He loved the world and how He does not predestine anyone to eternal judgement. There is one more verse that shows God does not predestine to hell. II Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” When I believed in double predestination here how I translated this verse, I would say you have to read it context, which you do. Here what I said verse 8 starts out with Beloved setting up the context, so towards us, was the elect because of verse 8 starting with beloved and that any and all were the beloved.

Then when that sister PB post it to show that God wanted everyone to be saved and it not saying that but it was not saying what I was saying either. The any and all are the people of the world because He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Then I realized that He does not want anyone to perish but they should repent, that not saying He is predestining them to hell, because His desire is that all would be saved, but they love darkness rather than light and hate the light and they are condemned already.

It's God's mercy that He saves anyone at all, because we all deserve hell fire in the deepest darkest hottest torments of eternal judgement. When you see the weight of your sin before a Holy God and the fear of the Lord strikes your heart and you cry out Lord have mercy on me for I have broken all of your commandment because I love my sin and hated You in my wickedness, please have mercy on me and you feel the weight of sin being lifted off of you and the flood of His amazing grace, all you can do is worship Him for His great love with which He loved us in that while I was still a sinner Christ died for me and He demonstrated His love for me by pouring out His Holy Spirit in my heart. all the time on your knee with tears of repentance that turn to tears of joy because you have been set free and who the Son sets free is free indeed.

I came to understand God grace through the study of the 10 commandment and the sinfulness of man followed by a study on the beauty of God's Holiness, when God opened my eyes to see His glorious grace.

 

[Johnny_B]

I'll try and be serious and answer your question. What you are talking about is double predestination. I only know of one person who believes that, the rest of us don't. Mankind is responsible for their own sins. God in his grace chose to save some to display his grace and mercy, and chose not to save others to display his justice and wrath.

​Interesting that you are talking about double predestination, I just posted on that. I used to believe in it, but since have repented of it, a sister here actually helped me with out even knowing it, I did thank her and have not seen her post here in a bit.

 

[ForthAngel]

​Interesting that you are talking about double predestination, I just posted on that. I used to believe in it, but since have repented of it, a sister here actually helped me with out even knowing it, I did thank her and have not seen her post here in a bit.

Yeah, I don't believe in it either.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Calvin and Arminius both supported baptizing babies.

Hyper-Calvinists teach that babies when they die are condemned depending on their election.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh i know. The unconditional election condemns infants if you believe in that.

 

[ForthAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?





So, in reality -God does choose certain ones to go to hell then - they do not get to choose?

This belief says that "God in his grace chose to save some to display his grace and mercy, and chose not to save others to display his justice and wrath. "

That is God choosing for those people to go to hell because they have no choice in the matter.

They are "not allowed" to chose Christ's sacrifice for their sins even though He took away the sins of the world. That is a major violation of the gospel message that "Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".

That is no even close to the gospel message.

We're just going to go in circles. No, the carnal man is unable to choose God. It requires a new nature which requires being born again of the Spirit. All of mankind is condemned already due to their collective rebellion. And I never said it was the Gospel. It's an overview of God's relationship to man. He has found all of mankind guilty. Every last person who ever lived or ever will. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none are righteous, none seek after God, we are slaves to sin, the carnal mind is against God and cannot submit to his law, the carnal mind cannot please God, and so on. And then the other side, those he foreknew he predestined, those he predestined he called, those he called he justified, those hes justified he glorified. I highlighted mind because it proves that a man cannot think one day, oh, I think I'll be a christian and follow Jesus. Impossible according to scripture. We can do nothing to please God in our fallen state. Sin corrupted to the core. We see heart, mind, and flesh are all in a state of corruption and rebellion against God before salvation.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they do not believe because they are not of his sheep, not that they aren't of his sheep because they do not believe. He also said all that the Father has given him will come to him and his sheep hear his voice.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

It's all about him, not us.

I know you will pull the foreknown card, so let me just say that God created time and space and he is not a fortune teller. He didn't choose someone based off of merit or some inclination they may have or by being intelligent enough to choose him while others were too stupid to. You do nothing to get your salvation. When you demand grace, it's no longer grace.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

So, God doesn't choose some on purpose for hell and some for heaven then? He lets them chose with their own will when they hear the message that Christ took away the sins of the world?

That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Is this true?





So, in reality -God does choose certain ones to go to hell then - they do not get to choose?

This belief says that "God in his grace chose to save some to display his grace and mercy, and chose not to save others to display his justice and wrath. "

That is God choosing for those people to go to hell because they have no choice in the matter.

They are "not allowed" to chose Christ's sacrifice for their sins even though He took away the sins of the world. That is a major violation of the gospel message that "Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".

That is no even close to the gospel message.

Basically its just a debate over free will. If we are mere puppets being all controlled by God with only a sense of freedom or God honors a free choice to love him.

Its just like our cat. Our Cat dont love me. So if i had the power to make it love me, and i force hold it and pet it. What kind of love is that?

 

[Depleted]

The Five Points of Calvinism​

There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism. Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500's at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation.
The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them. Jesus died for all peoples' sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
​

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP


I do not accept Calvin's Theology simply because it completely discounts "free will." The basit ideology is that man has ZERO to do with his salvation. Calvin believed that all men are EITHER chosen from the beginning to salvation, or NOT chosen, and, thus, face eternal condemnation regardless of what they say or do.

Some Calvinists will argue with this, but it is the basic ideology of what Calvin asserted. Since his time, there have been some groups that have altered Calvin's ideology with changes here and there, but the still fall short of the Truth of Scripture in my opinion only I suppose.

I firmly believe in "free will," thus I must reject Calvin's ideology.

Fine, but she wasn't asking people who disagree with it. She wanted to know what those who do agree with it believe.

 

[preacher4truth]

We're just going to go in circles. No, the carnal man is unable to choose God. It requires a new nature which requires being born again of the Spirit. All of mankind is condemned already due to their collective rebellion. And I never said it was the Gospel. It's an overview of God's relationship to man. He has found all of mankind guilty. Every last person who ever lived or ever will. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none are righteous, none seek after God, we are slaves to sin, the carnal mind is against God and cannot submit to his law, the carnal mind cannot please God, and so on. And then the other side, those he foreknew he predestined, those he predestined he called, those he called he justified, those hes justified he glorified. I highlighted mind because it proves that a man cannot think one day, oh, I think I'll be a christian and follow Jesus. Impossible according to scripture. We can do nothing to please God in our fallen state. Sin corrupted to the core. We see heart, mind, and flesh are all in a state of corruption and rebellion against God before salvation.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they do not believe because they are not of his sheep, not that they aren't of his sheep because they do not believe. He also said all that the Father has given him will come to him and his sheep hear his voice.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

It's all about him, not us.

I know you will pull the foreknown card, so let me just say that God created time and space and he is not a fortune teller. He didn't choose someone based off of merit or some inclination they may have or by being intelligent enough to choose him while others were too stupid to. You do nothing to get your salvation. When you demand grace, it's no longer grace.

The lost must be regenerated, they don't simply freely choose Christ out of their deep founded love for God that is inherent within them. But that is what the free will false gospel preaches, that they went to Christ out of genuine love for Him and chose Him to save them. That is really an arrogant, fleshly thing to say about ones self that compared to others this is what they did. They should be proud, and they are.

But, you know, they give all the glory to God in token fashion.

God must do His work in the heart, what we call "regeneration" which is what took place within Cornelius in Acts 10. The only way he pleased God was because he was regenerated, then, after Peter was called to preach to him, he was converted. Bo one in the flesh can please God, Romans 8:8, yet the free willers say they can which is nothing short of full Pelagianism.

 

[ForthAngel]

The lost must be regenerated, they don't simply freely choose Christ out of their deep founded love for God that is inherent within them. But that is what the free will false gospel preaches, that they went to Christ out of genuine love for Him and chose Him to save them. That is really an arrogant, fleshly thing to say about ones self that compared to others this is what they did. They should be proud, and they are.

But, you know, they give all the glory to God in token fashion.

God must do His work in the heart, what we call "regeneration" which is what took place within Cornelius in Acts 10. The only way he pleased God was because he was regenerated, then, after Peter was called to preach to him, he was converted. Bo one in the flesh can please God, Romans 8:8, yet the free willers say they can which is nothing short of full Pelagianism.

I honestly never realized just how destructive it is until just this moment. You're right. It's straight up Pelagianism.