Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

Sin came through the blood of the father?
Is there scripture for this?
I've never heard it.
Because of Adam?

Please comment.

Yes, through Adam and because we are born in this fallen world of which our bodies have sin in them as Paul clearly says in Romans 7:17-23

Romans 5 talks about how sin entered the world through Adam and subsequently we all were affected by this sin which somehow enters our bodies. The scriptures are not specific about this.

We do know scientifically that the baby has it's own blood supply apart from the mother and it gets it's blood from the father's sperm. Jesus got His blood from the Holy Spirit's sperm ( if you will ) from the Father.

Here is what gotquestions says about Adam and sin entering the world.

https://www.gotquestions.org/inherit-sin.html

There are lot's of things written about this subject. "In sin did my mother conceive me" is a famous quote from David. He wasn't saying that his mother sinned while having sex in order to conceive David.

 

[PeterJens]

What is the sin nature? Mans nature with out communion with God.

Man appears quite good and caring, and certainly can create some fantastic things
The question is are they really good. Or does man grow corrupted by everything he
touches because he has only himself as a reference without the love and truth of
the Lord flowing through Him. This is what I would describe as original sin, man without
God.

 

[garee]

Sin came through the blood of the father?
Is there scripture for this?
I've never heard it.
Because of Adam?

Not through literal blood as that seen.

I would offer sin came because Adam and Eve obeyed the good pleasure of the will of the father of lies, as a spiritual matter, rather than obeying God not seen, they obeyed that seen as the father of lies put his words on the mouth of the creature a serpent. They fell from faith (the unseen) voice of God.

I think it has to do with following the principle found in 2 Cortihtian4:18, a prescription for hearing God not seen, an aid in rightly dividing the word of God’s truth. It is used to decipher parables that are designed to hide the spiritual meaning from the lost by revealing to His childrn who walk by faith (the unseen) also.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Although the life of the flesh is in the blood, that life is spirit life and not literal blood, and why when not understood properly by the JW’s they refuse blood transfusions in respect to “do not eat blood” in respect to that seen, and not that not seen, the spirit that gives life to the blood.

In that way blood is used as a metaphor, using that seen to represent that not seen, the spirit essence of life.

The pouring out of the blood represents the pouring out of the Spirit of Christ (the promise) as if it was literal blood .The literal blood of a sacrifice poured out reveals spirit life was given in jeopardy of His own Spirit life. God is Spirit and not a man as us.

Sin came through the resisting of the spirit .Again literal blood has no spirit life to offer and therefore cannot work as the work of the Spirit, it must be poured out.

Christ of his own volition emptied himself of the spirit it returned to where it came from (the Father of all spirit life). The blood returned to the dust from where it came.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Grace777x70]

Not through literal blood as that seen.

I would offer sin came because Adam and Eve obeyed the good pleasure of the will of the father of lies, as a spiritual matter, rather than obeying God not seen, they obeyed that seen as the father of lies put his words on the mouth of the creature a serpent. They fell from faith (the unseen) voice of God.

I think it has to do with following the principle found in 2 Cortihtian4:18, a prescription for hearing God not seen, an aid in rightly dividing the word of God’s truth. It is used to decipher parables that are designed to hide the spiritual meaning from the lost by revealing to His childrn who walk by faith (the unseen) also.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Although the life of the flesh is in the blood, that life is spirit life and not literal blood, and why when not understood properly by the JW’s they refuse blood transfusions in respect to “do not eat blood” in respect to that seen, and not that not seen, the spirit that gives life to the blood.

In that way blood is used as a metaphor, using that seen to represent that not seen, the spirit essence of life.

The pouring out of the blood represents the pouring out of the Spirit of Christ (the promise) as if it was literal blood .The literal blood of a sacrifice poured out reveals spirit life was given in jeopardy of His own Spirit life. God is Spirit and not a man as us.

Sin came through the resisting of the spirit .Again literal blood has no spirit life to offer and therefore cannot work as the work of the Spirit, it must be poured out.

Christ of his own volition emptied himself of the spirit it returned to where it came from (the Father of all spirit life). The blood returned to the dust from where it came.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It could be - because sin is a spiritual substance (if you will). At any rate - we know what Christ our Lord has already done to set us free from sin and we are alive in Him now in the spirit and the renewing of our minds is paramount to walking in Christ now while on this earth.

Hebrews says that Jesus entered into the holy place with His own blood. Not sure what this means in the context of whether it was His literal blood or what the blood represents in heaven when He entered the temple there to present it.

 

[blessedjohn80]

The criminal on the cross showed so much
1 Christ was innocent
2 He died for others and forgave them
3 the criminal was guilty and had his just reward
4 Christ was going to heaven
5 He rebuked the other criminal for his abuse, a sign of faith a good work
6 He asked the Lord to save him
7 Christ had overcome death and fear
8 He saw Christs love for his mother and disciples

This man saw all the realities of Christ, had a close up view for 6 hours.
What a sight, what a man.

Point number five is really stretching it.

"And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”

The above scripture means that they received their punishment according to their bad deeds.
Something that the "works salvation" group so often focus and emphasize.
To which they say "If you don't have good works, your faith is dead, hence you are not saved."

The scriptures is clear again about saved only by faith in Jesus and not by works.

It's interesting to see that this part of scripture is often overlooked just because it disproves works based salvation
but it just goes to show that the devil is working hard to deceive many away from Jesus.

It's not surprising that those who undermine the power of Jesus' perfect work can't accept the total forgiveness and love from God.

The Scoreboard stands!
Not by works = 1
By works = 0

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG

Two things:


1. Do you believe God PURPOSEFULLY gave us conditions He knew we could not keep so as to cause us to REQUIRE a Savior??
It sounds like this is what you're saying.

The edenic? No, He did that to establish a relationship and trust. One can not have a true relationship unless the other has the option to say no Otherwise, He will not really comprehend or really appreciate the relationship he has with the other person.

Now, I am not saying adam had to sin to realise this, I am sure he realised how great God was, and how his relationship was a great thing, But I guarantee after he fell. He appreciated and understood better what he had, And would never question Gods love again.

Much like those who truly have repented, who realise where they are in the spiritual world. WOuld never question God again, Because they understood where they came from.

the mosaic, Yes I do think God gave that on purpose. And paul supports this in Galatians.

Gal 3:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

God did it for one reason only, To show us our sin, and lead us to the redeemer.

Instead of... God made humans and wanted to, even though He knew we would fail. He, through His grace, gave us the way out ---Jesus.

Yes, I agree,, And this is why he gave the law of moses, to lead us to understand this point. Gods grace.

2. in the above statement (highlighted by me) you say:

We have to trust God will send sinners to hell

Is this a mis-speak?
We are all sinners. (we are not all going to be away from God)
You must mean that God sends non-believers to be where He is not (hell).

Thanks for clarifying.

I am talking pre-savation, before we repent and trust God, (and ps thanks for asking and not just assuming)

I have to trust God will send all sinners to hell. And I am one of those sinners, If I am to have any hope of trustin ghim to save me.

If I do not believe God will send me to hell. I will never have salvic faith in Christ. I will nnot think I need him, I may believe he is from God. But I will never get on my knees like the tax collector..

 

[garee]

What is the sin nature? Mans nature with out communion with God.

Yes dead (no eternal spirit life) in their trespasses and sin without a living hope that comes from a living God, without communion with God, who is not a man as us.

Man appears quite good and caring, and certainly can create some fantastic things
The question is are they really good.

Good for what?

He who has no form defines what is good by that which he creates .

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

en 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Again God who has no form reveals as a law not subject to change what the word “good” means.

When faced with the Son of man as that seen ,(the temporal flesh)that he of his own volition he put on for a one time outward demonstration . He was referred to as good ,Master . Knowing no man can serve two masters . Christ said only God (not seen is good). He resisted all the efforts of men making his flesh that which is good, as a way of worship.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
In that way just as we are to call no man on earth father becasues one is in heaven not seen the same applies to master(Rabbi) .one is the master our Father in heaven

 

[FranC]

Point number five is really stretching it.

"And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”

The above scripture means that they received their punishment according to their bad deeds.
Something that the "works salvation" group so often focus and emphasize.
To which they say "If you don't have good works, your faith is dead, hence you are not saved."

The scriptures is clear again about saved only by faith in Jesus and not by works.

It's interesting to see that this part of scripture is often overlooked just because it disproves works based salvation
but it just goes to show that the devil is working hard to deceive many away from Jesus.
It's not surprising that those who undermine the power of Jesus' perfect work can't accept the total forgiveness and love from God.

The Scoreboard stands!
Not by works = 1
By works = 0

I'm sorry blessedjohn80, but your post above gave me a giggle.

You're saying this:

the devil is working hard to deceive many away from Jesus.

about persons who WANT TO "WORK" and live their life as God would want them to.
THESE are the people that the devil is deceiving???

Your thought process seems a bit scrambled...

 

[garee]

It could be - because sin is a spiritual substance (if you will). At any rate - we know what Christ our Lord has already done to set us free from sin and we are alive in Him now in the spirit and the renewing of our minds is paramount to walking in Christ now while on this earth.

Hebrews says that Jesus entered into the holy place with His own blood. Not sure what this means in the context of whether it was His literal blood or what the blood represents in heaven when He entered the temple there to present it.

Amen and if I could add my two cents.

I find it interesting the way he uses the word blood. The promise is in Joel is that he he would come and pour out his Spirit, on flesh, not literal blood on flesh, blood being typified as sinful.

I was thinking of a verse where God demonstrated the pouring out his Spirit(not seen) as if it was blood. The sweat indicates he was working with the father suffering unto death (not dying, God cannot die) but giving spirit life. He put the disciples asleep so that they would not be accreted to the work that Christ performed alone.

And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Luk 22:40 -43 (The father working together with the Son to strengthen Him so that he could finish the work )

Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat (indicating he was working )was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

As it where, denotes a parable is be used.

 

[garee]

I'm sorry blessedjohn80, but your post above gave me a giggle.

You're saying this:

the devil is working hard to deceive many away from Jesus.

about persons who WANT TO "WORK" and live their life as God would want them to.
THESE are the people that the devil is deceiving???

Your thought process seems a bit scrambled...

I think the working hard comes from accusing the brethern day and night before God accusing them that they do not have salvation according to the faith of Christ, that comes from hearing God.

Not sure if unscrambles?


Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and
night

 

[JIMBO43]

i conclude that if you have no works you have no Jesus......

I also conclude that if ye ask for some good works you may just be granted..

 

[sevenseas]

I'm curious.

what are the works we are expected to do?

what are these works that people base their Christianity on?

how about it? works? what are they?

I read about works here on a constant basis, yet I do not see those works defined, so let's define what is actually being spoke of

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm curious.

what are the works we are expected to do?

what are these works that people base their Christianity on?

how about it? works? what are they?

I read about works here on a constant basis, yet I do not see those works defined, so let's define what is actually being spoke of

The thread is about salvation, and works required to get saved, maintain salvation, or not lose salvation.

You asking about works to be saved? or just plain works? If this is what your asking, maybe better to open another thread. so as not to confuse people on this one..

 

[sevenseas]

The thread is about salvation, and works required to get saved, maintain salvation, or not lose salvation.

You asking about works to be saved? or just plain works? If this is what your asking, maybe better to open another thread. so as not to confuse people on this one..

well actually I was referencing the post above mine

those kind of works

people are tying them in to salvation, so I'm like what works in particular are you talking about regarding salvation

after 344 pages, it seems no question would be out of order

 

[JIMBO43]

theese are the works that one must do to obtain salvation....


And that is to believe....


conclusion works save...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well actually I was referencing the post above mine

those kind of works

people are tying them in to salvation, so I'm like what works in particular are you talking about regarding salvation

after 344 pages, it seems no question would be out of order

True,

But I keep getting told no one believes in works to earn salvation. So there should really be no discussion to begin with if this was true.. Yet here we are 6874 posts later..

 

[BillG]

You're right and we are certainly taught both.

I fail to see why we're even discussing works IF we all agree that they're necessary for sanctification.

The problem might be that some here may believe that works actually bring a person to salvation. Personally, I know of no denomination that teaches this.

ONLY God can save.
To CONTINUE to be saved, we must CONTINUE in God's way. Follow Jesus and what He taught.

If we abandon Jesus and His way, does that not put us right back where we started?

I am not sure I would put it that way.

We can all agree that we have been sanctified

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sanctified

g0037. ἁγιάζω hagiazō; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: — hallow, be holy, sanctify.




to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

to separate from profane things and dedicate which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion" in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy.to God
consecrate things to God
dedicate people to God


to purify
to cleanse externally
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
to purify internally by renewing of the soul

I think the general meaing is to be made Holy and set apart.

The Latin word is Sanctus

which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion" in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy.

Now for me works are not necessary for sanctification.

Works are a result of being sanctified in the name of Jesus.

We can only be renewed internally when we focus on one thing and one thing only and it's not works, it is Jesus.

After all he is the one who justified us and sanctified us in the first place and set us apart.

So we focus on him in this process of sanctification out of which works will flow. And as we continue to focus on him and not works we would probably be surprised how much we have matured in Christ from time x to time y.

But if we focus on time x that is all we will focus on.

Just my limited thoughts.

Oswald Chambers thoughts.

https://utmost.org/the-cost-of-sanctification/

 

[FranC]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

Opps....I forget this part.

The truth is that the old man who was in Adam which was our sinful nature is dead - died on the cross with Christ. Rom. 6:6 ; Gal. 2:20, Col. 3:3

We have a new nature in Christ now and that is our true identity.





The operative word in my post is highlighted in brown above. It is the word "was".

I posted no scriptures from the old NIV.

Yes...we "did" have a sinful nature when we were still in Adam but we don't anymore because we in Christ now have a new nature and this new nature is the real us in Christ now.

We have the flesh which has the power of sin still in it and we also have our un-renewed minds/ which is our fleshly brain which houses our thought patterns and belief systems.

This "brain" does not go to heaven when we die either. It is a member of the body.
We are still responsible with what we do in these bodies.

The new NIV fixed the translation error where they wrongfully translated "the flesh" as the sinful nature in 2002. That older translation caused more mis-understanding about the new creation and identity then any other translation error.

Unfortunately the NIV was the most used bible when it first came out after 1973 which has helped to fuel this mis-understanding of our true nature in Christ.

Grace,

Where's Willie_T???

I'm sure he would agree that you believe exactly the same doctrine as someone Willie and I both know.
I mean, it's like you two get together in the evening and make sure you're thinking alike!!

It's OK. Nothing wrong with it --- in this case it's all lingo.

 

[BillG]

There was a time when I would have thought you need to resolve things emotionally
and then behaviour would follow. I now think Jesus is actually a behaviourist, commanding
us to do actions in a particular way, and our emotions will get remodelled.

I see what you are saying and understand that this actually does happen.
I myself would focus on my emotions and if I could rid myself of them then behaviour would follow.

However I would not say that Jesus is a behaviourist, commanding us to do actions is a particular way that emotions will get remodelled as a 100% statement and fact and course of action.

To me a change in behaviour will not change the emotions we have. I am talking mainly about negative emotions that dictate our behaviour in our understanding of God as a loving Father, and how this affects our walk.

Jesus is focused on our behaviour alone but focused on what is causing this behaviour.
To me that is what he wants to deal with, the reason why.

That can result from a plethora of reasons, ranging from deep hurt for traumatic experiences that dig in, leading to pain, hurt, self preservation, unforgivness to a total lack of understanding of who God is and how much he loves us.

To me he doesn't want to give us coping mechanisms but fully root out the coping mechanisms that we have put in place.

To me this is done by daring to have faith to believe that all he says about us and promises us it true and he will act.

If we can do that then he works and the negative is replaced with the positive.

 

[JIMBO43]

I am not sure I would put it that way.

We can all agree that we have been sanctified

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sanctified

g0037. ἁγιάζω hagiazō; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: — hallow, be holy, sanctify.




to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

to separate from profane things and dedicate which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion" in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy.to God
consecrate things to God
dedicate people to God


to purify
to cleanse externally
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
to purify internally by renewing of the soul

I think the general meaing is to be made Holy and set apart.

The Latin word is Sanctus

which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion" in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy.

Now for me works are not necessary for sanctification.

Works are a result of being sanctified in the name of Jesus.

We can only be renewed internally when we focus on one thing and one thing only and it's not works, it is Jesus.

After all he is the one who justified us and sanctified us in the first place and set us apart.

So we focus on him in this process of sanctification out of which works will flow. And as we continue to focus on him and not works we would probably be surprised how much we have matured in Christ from time x to time y.

But if we focus on time x that is all we will focus on.

Just my limited thoughts.

Oswald Chambers thoughts.

https://utmost.org/the-cost-of-sanctification/

yup but with all taht said there all still works... whether you do them or jesus does them by sanctifying you each day,,,,, there still works .... so yes billy fish works do save you......
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