Not By Works
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He came to be our atonement.
We were slaves to sin before.
He came to free us from the bondage of slavery to satan.
To destroy death.
To give us the opportunity to go to heaven. No one could go to heaven until Jesus died and was resurrected.
See Luke 16 Lazarus and the Rich Man
Jesus had to free the slaves who had gone before the sacrifice
We had a broken relationship with God. Jesus came to mend that relationship.
We still have to do our part. We cannot say we belong to the Kingdom and then do nothing FOR the Kingdom.
Yes. Works are necessary to remain saved.
Do you see the word IF in the New Testament? IF WE HOLD FAST,... many.
we could continue Tomorrow, if you like. It's very late here.
J is an act of God.
S requires the cooperation of man. That means works.
Could we stop working and be saved??
I posted Revelation.
I posted chapters of Mathew, Jesus' own words.
I posted John 14:15
How about 2 Peter 2:20-22
We're either working for God
or working for the enemy
There are two gates, a narrow gate and a wide gate.
Did Jesus say there is a third gate?
We're either with God, following HIS rules,
or we're with the enemy.
I don't see the problem in saying works keep us saved.
Following Jesus keeps us saved.
Believing in Jesus keeps us saved.
What does BELIEF mean?
We were slaves to sin before.
He came to free us from the bondage of slavery to satan.
To destroy death.
To give us the opportunity to go to heaven. No one could go to heaven until Jesus died and was resurrected.
See Luke 16 Lazarus and the Rich Man
Jesus had to free the slaves who had gone before the sacrifice
We had a broken relationship with God. Jesus came to mend that relationship.
We still have to do our part. We cannot say we belong to the Kingdom and then do nothing FOR the Kingdom.
Yes. Works are necessary to remain saved.
Do you see the word IF in the New Testament? IF WE HOLD FAST,... many.
we could continue Tomorrow, if you like. It's very late here.
J is an act of God.
S requires the cooperation of man. That means works.
Could we stop working and be saved??
I posted Revelation.
I posted chapters of Mathew, Jesus' own words.
I posted John 14:15
How about 2 Peter 2:20-22
We're either working for God
or working for the enemy
There are two gates, a narrow gate and a wide gate.
Did Jesus say there is a third gate?
We're either with God, following HIS rules,
or we're with the enemy.
I don't see the problem in saying works keep us saved.
Following Jesus keeps us saved.
Believing in Jesus keeps us saved.
What does BELIEF mean?
What about on a particular day and you are having a bad day.
That day you do no works and Jesus comes back on that day?
What if that period is a week or month?
Ok being a bit picky but at what point is the line drawn and how can we judge that line?
I don't think we can, we have no idea what is going on behind a closed persons heart
That day you do no works and Jesus comes back on that day?
What if that period is a week or month?
Ok being a bit picky but at what point is the line drawn and how can we judge that line?
I don't think we can, we have no idea what is going on behind a closed persons heart
E
I just Noticed this was embedded in my quote so did not follow.. I have copied it into a quote
It is not just hypergrace It is grace. I wish that term never came around (thanks stephen)
We are saved by grace not works, if this is true, Works are not necessary to maintain salvation. because no amount of work we could ever do can cause one sin to be forgiven.
Grace believers are not against works, they are against saying works must be done to stay saved, That is no different than saying we must earn salvation, because you are earning salvation by your works, Saying you "maintain it" is not changing the fact. I could never maintain my salvation, I will always require grace.. .
Yes, and one sin and they died. and the fall of mankind was enacted.. One sin, It did not atter how many sins they committed after this, One sin was all it took.
I am one of Gods children, and I love to obey God, I am not sure what the argument is, Gods children obey, Those who are not his children do not obey
But Gods children are not his children BECAUSE THEY OBEY, They are his children because of grace, they obey because they are his children.
The word is necessary. That is what is different between us,
You think it is necessary in order to (or necessary or else)
I think they are a result of ie, they are something that will happen.
Look at Abraham, He was saved and declared righteous before he did one work, But it took many years before he had enough faith to sacrifice his son, He never would have done that when he was first saved, He did not even trust God enough to keep his wife or his life safe, he lied and said she was his sister.
Gods first act of love gets us moving, His continued acts of love makes us stronger.
It is not just hypergrace It is grace. I wish that term never came around (thanks stephen)
We are saved by grace not works, if this is true, Works are not necessary to maintain salvation. because no amount of work we could ever do can cause one sin to be forgiven.
Grace believers are not against works, they are against saying works must be done to stay saved, That is no different than saying we must earn salvation, because you are earning salvation by your works, Saying you "maintain it" is not changing the fact. I could never maintain my salvation, I will always require grace.. .
Yes, and one sin and they died. and the fall of mankind was enacted.. One sin, It did not atter how many sins they committed after this, One sin was all it took.
I am one of Gods children, and I love to obey God, I am not sure what the argument is, Gods children obey, Those who are not his children do not obey
But Gods children are not his children BECAUSE THEY OBEY, They are his children because of grace, they obey because they are his children.
The word is necessary. That is what is different between us,
You think it is necessary in order to (or necessary or else)
I think they are a result of ie, they are something that will happen.
Look at Abraham, He was saved and declared righteous before he did one work, But it took many years before he had enough faith to sacrifice his son, He never would have done that when he was first saved, He did not even trust God enough to keep his wife or his life safe, he lied and said she was his sister.
Gods first act of love gets us moving, His continued acts of love makes us stronger.
E
I do not think we can have this focus if we believe works are required, If so, our focus would always be on self, and how good we are doing, always wondering if I do enough.. Even if we deny we are doing this, I think many become hardened and actually believe they are not doing this.. I know I was hardened to this fact. Until a good friend showed me..
E
Then we are not saved by grace, but by works, There is no way around this fact, If you say works are required to keep saved, you are teaching salvation by works.
Do you see if in the abrahamic covenant, In the davidic, In the new? Of course not.
Jesus did not say you wil have eternal life if you stay good and do all these works, He said IF you have faith in him.
Jesus did not say in john 6 you will never die and live forever if you do all these works, and keep in them, He said if we believe in him, and that he said was the work of God
Your making the new covenant a conditional covenant, Eternal life conditional life.
If the law could not save us, What makes anyone think a new law could save us, we could not keep the first, what makes us think we can keep any other.
The law still stands, if we want a conditional covenant, we have the law. And thats it,, And we have failed.. it will conbdemn you, That why paul taught so much against works..
if you want law, you will fail, I will fail, we will both fail and suffer the doom of hell..
or receive grace.
those are our only two options.
Do you see if in the abrahamic covenant, In the davidic, In the new? Of course not.
Jesus did not say you wil have eternal life if you stay good and do all these works, He said IF you have faith in him.
Jesus did not say in john 6 you will never die and live forever if you do all these works, and keep in them, He said if we believe in him, and that he said was the work of God
Your making the new covenant a conditional covenant, Eternal life conditional life.
If the law could not save us, What makes anyone think a new law could save us, we could not keep the first, what makes us think we can keep any other.
The law still stands, if we want a conditional covenant, we have the law. And thats it,, And we have failed.. it will conbdemn you, That why paul taught so much against works..
if you want law, you will fail, I will fail, we will both fail and suffer the doom of hell..
or receive grace.
those are our only two options.
I am trying to think of another way of describing works.
A work is a good thing that needs doing.
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
James 4:17
Not doing these good things could be seen as sinful behaviour or rebellion.
Rebellion leads to a loss of faith and therefore salvation or communion with Jesus.
So not doing good works could lead to a loss of salvation.
It is a difficult compromise between the two concepts.
So I can see you are not earning salvation or maintaining by doing good works.
but rather it is an outflow of ones heart. A denial of this outflow of love is stopping
Gods blessing through oneself, and resisting the very life that brought life in the
first place.
I can see how language can describe a reality but maybe not well but spiritually
it is still true.
I am struck by the balance idea between good and evil actions that many fall into
who do not know Christ. This is where earning salvation really kicks in, making sure
your good deeds outway you bad deeds. I do not think anyone is arguing this point though.
A work is a good thing that needs doing.
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
James 4:17
Not doing these good things could be seen as sinful behaviour or rebellion.
Rebellion leads to a loss of faith and therefore salvation or communion with Jesus.
So not doing good works could lead to a loss of salvation.
It is a difficult compromise between the two concepts.
So I can see you are not earning salvation or maintaining by doing good works.
but rather it is an outflow of ones heart. A denial of this outflow of love is stopping
Gods blessing through oneself, and resisting the very life that brought life in the
first place.
I can see how language can describe a reality but maybe not well but spiritually
it is still true.
I am struck by the balance idea between good and evil actions that many fall into
who do not know Christ. This is where earning salvation really kicks in, making sure
your good deeds outway you bad deeds. I do not think anyone is arguing this point though.
I believe that what we are doing sometimes - is we are taking "descriptions" of what the Christian life looks like when the fruit of the spirit is being manifested in and through us - in other words the life of Christ Himself being manifested.
We then take these "descriptions" and try to force people into manifesting these in order to say that they are saved or in a works-based belief system - in order to maintain being saved.
Good moral living is in every religion of the world. What these are doing is mimicking the "descriptions" of the Christian life and think by "doing these" we will be accepted or declared righteous.
There is also a religion called Christianity which tries to do the very same thing - tries to mimic the life of Christ instead of abiding in the Vine and having His life bear the fruit on us the branches because without Him we can do nothing.
Abiding in the Vine to me is seeing Christ for all that He has done and as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we see Him for who He truly is and we also see ourselves because we are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17.
It is believing in Christ and all that He has already done for us by grace through faith - this releases His life to flow in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them. This is the fight of faith.
The Holy Spirit is the One who transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18. We participate in this with Him "for it is God who is at work in us both to will ( gives us the desire) and to do ( gives us the capability) to do His good pleasure. Phil 2:13
The kingdom of Gods works on this principle - we go to sleep and wake up and the fruit is there - how? We do not know how it grows - but it does.
Mark 4:26-28 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.
We then take these "descriptions" and try to force people into manifesting these in order to say that they are saved or in a works-based belief system - in order to maintain being saved.
Good moral living is in every religion of the world. What these are doing is mimicking the "descriptions" of the Christian life and think by "doing these" we will be accepted or declared righteous.
There is also a religion called Christianity which tries to do the very same thing - tries to mimic the life of Christ instead of abiding in the Vine and having His life bear the fruit on us the branches because without Him we can do nothing.
Abiding in the Vine to me is seeing Christ for all that He has done and as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we see Him for who He truly is and we also see ourselves because we are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17.
It is believing in Christ and all that He has already done for us by grace through faith - this releases His life to flow in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them. This is the fight of faith.
The Holy Spirit is the One who transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18. We participate in this with Him "for it is God who is at work in us both to will ( gives us the desire) and to do ( gives us the capability) to do His good pleasure. Phil 2:13
The kingdom of Gods works on this principle - we go to sleep and wake up and the fruit is there - how? We do not know how it grows - but it does.
Mark 4:26-28 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.
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This is another quoting of verses talking about conditional salvation, sowing to the Spirit
or to the flesh. You feel once the Holy Spirit has fallen on someone, that is it.
So how is it so many come to faith, walk for a number of years in the gifts and then walk
away. This is the practical reality, and I see no point constructing or discussing scripture
over this. Walk in love and Jesus and you live. Amen.
Walk in rebellion and sin, you break the foundation, and if you leave faith why should there
be anything left? All the promises are predicated on faith.
or to the flesh. You feel once the Holy Spirit has fallen on someone, that is it.
So how is it so many come to faith, walk for a number of years in the gifts and then walk
away. This is the practical reality, and I see no point constructing or discussing scripture
over this. Walk in love and Jesus and you live. Amen.
Walk in rebellion and sin, you break the foundation, and if you leave faith why should there
be anything left? All the promises are predicated on faith.
