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K
This is fairly close to what I believe and I was asking for similarities we had together,
- Total depravity is affirmed by Wesley, meaning that the fallen human being is completely helpless and in bondage to sin. This means, contrary to popular misconception, Wesley does not believe that fallen human beings have an inherent freedom of the will.
- The atonement is universal in scope. Christ’s death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, not only an elect few, as proposed by five-point Calvinism.
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Prevenient grace is universally available to all, restoring a measure of freedom so that the human being can respond to God’s grace. This is how Wesley could affirm that all human persons were free to respond to God’s grace – but note that the freedom which humans possess is a measure of freedom (not libertarian freedom) and is by grace, not an inherent endowment that is retained in fallen humanity.
- Grace is resistible and can be rejected, to our own destruction. God is actively drawing all people to himself, but his grace is not coercive.
- Predestination is therefore based on God’s foreknowledge, not his will. That is, God corporately predestines all those who respond in faith to salvation, and by foreknowledge he knows who will respond. His foreknowledge does not cause their response.
- Assurance of salvation is given by the Holy Spirit, who witnesses directly to our adoption as children of God through Christ, and is also confirmed indirectly by the fruit of the Spirit.
A
I don't know...I have not decided on if I believe God's grace is resistible or not. Also unsure about predestination/election versus foreknowledge.
It makes sense to me that we would all resist God's grace but His power changes us and helps us overcome that initial resistance. Because how else would anyone be saved if God didn't first change us and our minds?
Maybe it does come down to what we believe the natural state of man is without God's divine guidance?
Or can we ever actually be without divine guidance?
It makes sense to me that we would all resist God's grace but His power changes us and helps us overcome that initial resistance. Because how else would anyone be saved if God didn't first change us and our minds?
Maybe it does come down to what we believe the natural state of man is without God's divine guidance?
Or can we ever actually be without divine guidance?
The text isn't teaching all men who have ever lived although that is a popular misconception, but it doesn't tie into the rest of Scripture in God's redemptive plan. We know that is an impossibility in contradiction in light of the fact of God's predestining and election:
The will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment:
Rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. - John Gill
The will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment:
Rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. - John Gill
This is fairly close to what I believe and I was asking for similarities we had together,
- Total depravity is affirmed by Wesley, meaning that the fallen human being is completely helpless and in bondage to sin. This means, contrary to popular misconception, Wesley does not believe that fallen human beings have an inherent freedom of the will.
- The atonement is universal in scope. Christ’s death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, not only an elect few, as proposed by five-point Calvinism.
-
Prevenient grace is universally available to all, restoring a measure of freedom so that the human being can respond to God’s grace. This is how Wesley could affirm that all human persons were free to respond to God’s grace – but note that the freedom which humans possess is a measure of freedom (not libertarian freedom) and is by grace, not an inherent endowment that is retained in fallen humanity.
- Grace is resistible and can be rejected, to our own destruction. God is actively drawing all people to himself, but his grace is not coercive.
- Predestination is therefore based on God’s foreknowledge, not his will. That is, God corporately predestines all those who respond in faith to salvation, and by foreknowledge he knows who will respond. His foreknowledge does not cause their response.
- Assurance of salvation is given by the Holy Spirit, who witnesses directly to our adoption as children of God through Christ, and is also confirmed indirectly by the fruit of the Spirit.
Reformed people do believe that God foreknows those He predestines to salvation. However, you are applying the non-Reformed understanding of foreknowledge in your suggestion concerning the other POV.
Read my thread here in this regard:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-events-both-does-romans-8-28-30-refer.html
God foreknows PEOPLE in this context. He fore-loves them in a distinguishing manner that he does not love the non-elect, much like a man loves his wife in a distinguishing manner that he does not love other women. Of course, he foreknows events of all types too, but He decrees them, whether actively or passively. If he doesn't cause them directly, he allows them to occur which is basically passively decreeing them. With regards to salvation, he actively decrees the salvation of an individual because He himself regenerates them and causes them to respond in faith and repentance.
I only worship an omniscient, omnipotent God who brings to pass his decrees without fail and perfectly. His name is YHVH. I commend Him to you.
K
I believe God knows the beginning to the end.But knowing what will happen doesn't mean He has to influence what will happen. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws everyone,some listen and some do not. An older saint from where Im from was a horrible alcoholic. He and a friend were drunk one night drowning their sorrows. His friend said "you know what you need to do? You need to get saved,thats what my mother told me." That older saint was convicted and he went to church and became saved.He went back and told his friend the good news and witnesses to him.But his friend would not give in to the Holy Spirits convicting. So thats from my perspective,thats how I believe.
here's the state of man apart from the supernatural intervention of God:
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:9-18)
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Eph 2)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (Jn 3:26)
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Rom 3:9-18)
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Eph 2)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (Jn 3:26)
K
Yeah, still here.
Not sure what are we expected to respond to, though.
I have read the link, some guy writes about other guy (Wesley). I am not Wesleyan so ... what do you want to hear?
Not sure what are we expected to respond to, though.
I have read the link, some guy writes about other guy (Wesley). I am not Wesleyan so ... what do you want to hear?
See the post I posted above with the blue lettering. Do we not have similarities in belief there? I think we're closer than we think on certain points. I wanted thoughts on that but I have since posted other questions.
Lynn asked a question a while back,she is Reformed. And I agreed and saw no answer to what she said.How can electing one person not mean another is elected for destruction? And can a Calvinist know,for certain,without doubt that they are going to heaven? Do Calvinists sing "Blessed Assurance"?
we read those who persevere to the end will be saved, but we also read we're kept by the power of God.
there is no faithfulness, no power, greater than His.
That would be a misnomer, as God does redirect, influence and change the plans hearts of men according to His will. Research this and you'll see it to be true.
This is popular but not biblical. There are many who have never heard, and that is a hard truth. The only answer an arminian and anti-cal would have is "then they are saved by the light God gives them and they'll be in heaven" but that is pure mysticism. Nothing in Scripture speaks to this. "The wind blows where it listeth..."
Irresistible grace doesn't teach grace or the Spirit are not able to be resisted, so these types of stories are presented on a faulty understanding of IG.
The man who got saved was elected from the foundation of the world. The other man may also be elect, but still in a state of lostness, Ephesians 2:3.
This is popular but not biblical. There are many who have never heard, and that is a hard truth. The only answer an arminian and anti-cal would have is "then they are saved by the light God gives them and they'll be in heaven" but that is pure mysticism. Nothing in Scripture speaks to this. "The wind blows where it listeth..."
Irresistible grace doesn't teach grace or the Spirit are not able to be resisted, so these types of stories are presented on a faulty understanding of IG.
The man who got saved was elected from the foundation of the world. The other man may also be elect, but still in a state of lostness, Ephesians 2:3.
kg, the reformed believe the atonement actually accomplished something.
we believe it didn't just make salvation possible, but rather Christ truly atoned for the sins of His people.
He actually propitiated God's wrath in their behalf.
because if the Lord Jesus paid for everyone's sin, then everyone's sin has been atoned for, and everyone should be in the Kingdom.
does that make sense?
we believe it didn't just make salvation possible, but rather Christ truly atoned for the sins of His people.
He actually propitiated God's wrath in their behalf.
because if the Lord Jesus paid for everyone's sin, then everyone's sin has been atoned for, and everyone should be in the Kingdom.
does that make sense?
none are able. if God didn't act, all would follow their own sinful desires straight to hell.
see, this is what Jesus is saying here:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:44)
the Greek word translated 'can' is a cognate of 'dunamis'. it means ability, or power; we get our word dynamite from it.
the Lord Jesus is telling us God has to intervene for us to come to Christ.
oh, my grandsons are here. i love you guys!