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Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
3:20 is in the context of the church of Laodicea, so Jesus is knocking on the door of that church, not on peoples hearts like so many people add to the Scripture.
3:20 is in the context of the church of Laodicea, so Jesus is knocking on the door of that church, not on peoples hearts like so many people add to the Scripture.
Perseverence of the Saints is in line with the OSAS view of salvation.
If you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace yiu will never lose it. Basically when we see others "walk away" from God they never had genuine faith. 1 John 2:19 "Those who went out from us were never really with us". They confessed outwardly but not inwardly. Matt 15:8 "This people honors me with their lips but their heart is far from me". The view of not loosing our salvation comes patially from Joshua 1:5 where God says to Moses "I will never leave you or forsake you". And again in Heb 13:5.
If you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace yiu will never lose it. Basically when we see others "walk away" from God they never had genuine faith. 1 John 2:19 "Those who went out from us were never really with us". They confessed outwardly but not inwardly. Matt 15:8 "This people honors me with their lips but their heart is far from me". The view of not loosing our salvation comes patially from Joshua 1:5 where God says to Moses "I will never leave you or forsake you". And again in Heb 13:5.
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Ah. Forgot to mention. The grandmother walked down to be prayed over in the 1930's and died in the 1990's unchanged. I backslid within 4 months of regeneration, and my BIL backslide immediately. It took four years to see the change in me. 12 Years (and a Christian woman who would not marry a nonChristian lol) to see the change in him.
I'm still not sure if Judas was saved from that very last moment between jumping and splattering, but I'm pretty sure he didn't. That is the heights I give to the grandmother. It's possible, but no one ever saw anything change in her. (Nice lady, but not changed.)
I'm still not sure if Judas was saved from that very last moment between jumping and splattering, but I'm pretty sure he didn't. That is the heights I give to the grandmother. It's possible, but no one ever saw anything change in her. (Nice lady, but not changed.)
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Ummm, thank you?! 
I kind of stopped reading what he wrote somewhere in the first paragraph, when I realized it was a what-for, instead of a thought. So, I didn't read everything you wrote past getting you're defending me, for fear I'd figure out what he wrote, and then get all defensive anyway.
But thank you for the defense.
I kind of stopped reading what he wrote somewhere in the first paragraph, when I realized it was a what-for, instead of a thought. So, I didn't read everything you wrote past getting you're defending me, for fear I'd figure out what he wrote, and then get all defensive anyway.
But thank you for the defense.
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I know, for sure, on two of God's elect. (I strongly suspect on many more, but you're right. It usually is God alone who knows for sure.)
I am elected. Hubby is elected. I know I'm elected because I've tried multiple times to walk away, and could not. (Even ticked me off I couldn't, and I was already angry.) God's got me, and he's got me good. I figured that out (again) last March after walking away for a good three days. Not only does he have me, he horse-collars me much quicker than he used to.
Hubby figured it out, (yet again), last week about him. But he has been constant with God, so I really can't figure out why he doubts.
So, two people I know for sure.
You? Kayla? And so many other people on this site I'm pretty darn sure about.
I am elected. Hubby is elected. I know I'm elected because I've tried multiple times to walk away, and could not. (Even ticked me off I couldn't, and I was already angry.
) God's got me, and he's got me good. I figured that out (again) last March after walking away for a good three days. Not only does he have me, he horse-collars me much quicker than he used to.Hubby figured it out, (yet again), last week about him. But he has been constant with God, so I really can't figure out why he doubts.
So, two people I know for sure.
You? Kayla? And so many other people on this site I'm pretty darn sure about.
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It usually is pointless. Someone starts a thread refuting Calvinism and we're pretty well certain all it's going to be is people working hard to slap each other on their backs for agreeing with one another, (even when they aren't even doing that.)
This one is different. At least two people are listening. (Kayla and Ariel.) Sure, still got the usual back patters, (I'd list them but that might be reportable. If I lose my temper, I might list them anyway. lol) And then there are the lurkers. People watching, but not responding.
We ARE being listened to. I know, for sure, I loved some of your answers. I'm no more kidding about how good you are with that then I was for the other thing. We were getting somewhere. We are getting somewhere. And, yes, we are getting somewhere despite the mockers. And we are getting somewhere despite the arguments. (I have really got to keep my big mouth shut about Wesley.)
And yes, you were doing good until you let it get under your skin. You're better at this practice stuff than I am.
BUT, once it gets under your skin, drive it out. Or better yet, let God drive it out, so you can get back to defending position, instead of defending you. If you got to throw something, throw something. (Do NOT throw fragile items and do NOT throw things into fragile items. Experience talking. I still miss that figurine, and boy that window cost a lot to replace! lol) If you got to run a marathon to get the anger out, run a marathon. Do whatever you got to do...
And when calm, come back and keep at it. BUT get rid of the 'tude first. I'm learning from you what Reformed means in ways I've never considered, and I like that. BUT once you went off to defend yourself, you wouldn't let it go. Remember, sometimes it's us, not the other person. I had told Kayla and Ariel the same things over and over again, and yet, only once (well, I really think Ariel will finally get what I'm saying, when I said it again), did they finally get what I was trying to say. Is that me, or is that them? Does it matter? They were listening to something that is important, so as long as they hear, I'm good.
What becomes of this is of God, as long as we defend position, not us. Even if they never agree, at least they know. God does not save us by our ability to understand. He saves us for his glory and our good. These are sisters, even if we will always disagree on who gets the bathroom first. lol
This is NOT your usual "Calvinist-bad. Me good" thread. This is listening!
This one is different. At least two people are listening. (Kayla and Ariel.) Sure, still got the usual back patters, (I'd list them but that might be reportable. If I lose my temper, I might list them anyway. lol) And then there are the lurkers. People watching, but not responding.
We ARE being listened to. I know, for sure, I loved some of your answers. I'm no more kidding about how good you are with that then I was for the other thing. We were getting somewhere. We are getting somewhere. And, yes, we are getting somewhere despite the mockers. And we are getting somewhere despite the arguments. (I have really got to keep my big mouth shut about Wesley.
)And yes, you were doing good until you let it get under your skin. You're better at this practice stuff than I am.
BUT, once it gets under your skin, drive it out. Or better yet, let God drive it out, so you can get back to defending position, instead of defending you. If you got to throw something, throw something. (Do NOT throw fragile items and do NOT throw things into fragile items. Experience talking. I still miss that figurine, and boy that window cost a lot to replace! lol) If you got to run a marathon to get the anger out, run a marathon. Do whatever you got to do...
And when calm, come back and keep at it. BUT get rid of the 'tude first. I'm learning from you what Reformed means in ways I've never considered, and I like that. BUT once you went off to defend yourself, you wouldn't let it go. Remember, sometimes it's us, not the other person. I had told Kayla and Ariel the same things over and over again, and yet, only once (well, I really think Ariel will finally get what I'm saying, when I said it again), did they finally get what I was trying to say. Is that me, or is that them? Does it matter? They were listening to something that is important, so as long as they hear, I'm good.
What becomes of this is of God, as long as we defend position, not us. Even if they never agree, at least they know. God does not save us by our ability to understand. He saves us for his glory and our good. These are sisters, even if we will always disagree on who gets the bathroom first. lol
This is NOT your usual "Calvinist-bad. Me good" thread. This is listening!
I don't know, maybe it needs defined a bit more from the biblical view of saints who had this experience. Job and other saints expressed terror when in His presence, Israelites &c. But I am not saying suggesting this terror to be a lacking of peace. R C Sproul's talked of his conversion and feeling absolute terror when He knelt before Him in salvation. Probably John the Apostle felt a sense of terror when he fell down as a dead man. That is the terror that I am referring to, one experienced by saints.
You know, if somebody wants to know "what Calvinists believe", google is the best source... there are so many calvinistic websites, teachers, preachers, catechisms (Heidelberg), synods (Dordrecht), confessions (2nd helvetic confession), youtube discussions etc...
If somebody wants to know what specifically some people here on CC believe about Calvinism, PM seems to be the best way.
Any discussion thread will be filled with irrelevant posts and useless discussions...
If somebody wants to know what specifically some people here on CC believe about Calvinism, PM seems to be the best way.
Any discussion thread will be filled with irrelevant posts and useless discussions...
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Ah, Ariel and I are alike there. We're not playing. And we're not taking sides. Our aim is for solid truth. Truth doesn't have a side. Both of us are going to tell anyone when they're wrong no matter which side of an argument the person is on.
And as far as arguing goes, that's where Ariel and I different the most. We're usually on opposite sides of an argument. There's the difference. We do seek truth. We do demand truth. Sometimes what we think, (believe with our whole heart, so we aren't lying), isn't truth as much as we thought it was. And sometimes? Sometimes we simply don't get that so stick to what we thought until proved otherwise.
And as far as arguing goes, that's where Ariel and I different the most. We're usually on opposite sides of an argument. There's the difference. We do seek truth. We do demand truth. Sometimes what we think, (believe with our whole heart, so we aren't lying), isn't truth as much as we thought it was. And sometimes? Sometimes we simply don't get that so stick to what we thought until proved otherwise.
I never said it was about service or serving, you did.
I said God wants relationship not fear induced servitude
Serving and service unto God is not servitude.
You will never understand relationship with God no matter how many specific verses I put up. This is because you are blinded by theology that says God does all the picking and choosing, instead of the true Gospel that says all are invited, but must chose.
I said God wants relationship not fear induced servitude
Serving and service unto God is not servitude.
You will never understand relationship with God no matter how many specific verses I put up. This is because you are blinded by theology that says God does all the picking and choosing, instead of the true Gospel that says all are invited, but must chose.
My conversion was terrifying when I realized how sinful I was before a holy God. It's what lead me to understand grace in it's fullest. It lead to my repentance and ultimately my obedience. The terror subsided when God comforted me by his grace and love and that terror turned to reverence and obedience. Not saying I obey perfectly, obviously I don't, but the desire to do so is a powerful one, but no longer out of fear. Nonetheless, it was the initial terror that turned me to God.
That is the thing with anti-Calvinist and Arminian teachings - context has to be thrown out in order to use the text to prove their premise. Reformed theology holds to a very consistent hermeneutic, their theology does not. For example when we look at spiritual death, we see the total inability outside of God for the person to come to God. The term "dead" is "nekros" (a corpse). But what will happen to support free will is they will say "it only means separation from God" and then go into free will, and take Scriptures out of context.
The opposite of this "rule of interpretation" can be found in their treatment of "repentance." We see repentance as a turning from sin, as context supports that definition. But many of the other camp will go to the strict definition of "metanoia" (repentance) and say "No, it only means change of mind, "metanoia" "a change of mind"!"
This shows the inconsistency of their hermeneutic: one term gets a "spiritualized" definition (nekros) departing from the true strict definition in order to grant the spiritually dead an ability they do not have, while repentance on the other hand is only its strict definition and cannot mean anything else especially turning from sin.
But repentance must mean only its strict definition to them because turning from sin, progressive sanctification, evidence of conversion must all be twisted into a "works gospel" to derogate others. IOW repentance cannot be allowed to be seen as a lifestyle of turning from sin, some go as far as to say it isn't even necessary for salvation. To be fair not all those of the other camp(s) do this, but many do, and they all hold to an inconsistent hermeneutic.
The opposite of this "rule of interpretation" can be found in their treatment of "repentance." We see repentance as a turning from sin, as context supports that definition. But many of the other camp will go to the strict definition of "metanoia" (repentance) and say "No, it only means change of mind, "metanoia" "a change of mind"!"
This shows the inconsistency of their hermeneutic: one term gets a "spiritualized" definition (nekros) departing from the true strict definition in order to grant the spiritually dead an ability they do not have, while repentance on the other hand is only its strict definition and cannot mean anything else especially turning from sin.
But repentance must mean only its strict definition to them because turning from sin, progressive sanctification, evidence of conversion must all be twisted into a "works gospel" to derogate others. IOW repentance cannot be allowed to be seen as a lifestyle of turning from sin, some go as far as to say it isn't even necessary for salvation. To be fair not all those of the other camp(s) do this, but many do, and they all hold to an inconsistent hermeneutic.
That's great, thanks bro! I read an article about some Christian girl who attended a service and talked about feeling the terror of God. Take it FWIW but here it is:
I Saw the Terror of the Lord - From His Presence®
I Saw the Terror of the Lord - From His Presence®