Calvinists,Im Asking...

[SovereignGrace]

Is there a difference between Jesus drawing people and God the Father drawing people?

Was Jesus still omniscient while on Earth?

I ask because he was fully human and he said about some things like judgement day only the Father knows.

Maybe only God knows Whom he draws to Jesus?

Jesus said that all the Father gives Him WILL come to Him, and all who come to Him, He will never cast away.[John 6:37]

Jesus said if He is lifted up, will draw all men to Himself.[John 12:32]

Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one could come to the Father except through Him.[John 14:6]


So, it appears that it is the Spirit that quickens, Jesus who draws, and God that seals them in their salvation.

Guys and gals? Your thoughts?

 

[preacher4truth]

Show me, with some scripture, that the lost will repent when faced with hellfire on Judgment day.

Sounds like universalism coming to the surface again. They teach something like that and that God will then forgive everyone. Pretty much the same ideology and root of thought that leads to universalist error.

 

[Ariel82]

How did I know you'd use that verse?

This is referring to even the lost bowing to the Lordship of the Christ on the day of Judgment. Not that they are pleading for forgiveness of their sins, but rather, bowing to Him.

Even if they did ask for forgiveness of their sins, is God then required to forgive them?

Can folks work their sins off by good deeds?

Without a saving faith, repentance is one step too short.

People in the old covenant repented of their sins constantly, but did not have a saving faith in God or His salvation plan of the Seed and not seeds.

 

[SovereignGrace]

1 Timothy 2
1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

****

Read in context without preconceived notion that "all" can't possibly mean "all humanity" because it wouldn't fit your theology.

The next question is the word "desire" mean the same thing as "drag"?

No one will agrue that God desires all mankind will hear the Gospel and will make that happen.

Sissy, God is not this cruel monster who sets back and gloats about seeing lost ppl dying in their sins. Yet, He has also not willed the salvation of everybody whoever lived, either. When Jesus wept over Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37, we get this same picture. Jesus told these same ppl they were not His sheep, yet He still wept over their impending destruction.

So, there is a sense that God desires to see all be saved, but in His righteousness, sin can not and will not go unpunished.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Even if they did ask for forgiveness of their sins, is God then required to forgive them?

The only ones who would do this are those who are being drawn. On the day of Judgment, there will be no drawing and no desire to seek forgiveness.

Can folks work their sins off by good deeds?

If the answer to this is 'yes', then grace becomes null and void.

Without a saving faith, repentance is one step too short.

I think its many steps too short, imo.

People in the old covenant repented of their sins constantly, but did not have a saving faith in God or His salvation plan of the Seed and not seeds.

Exactly. But they also sought this via works, and where works are, grace ain't.

 

[Ariel82]

Sounds like universalism coming to the surface again. They teach something like that and that God will then forgive everyone. Pretty much the same ideology and root of thought that leads to universalist error.

The bold is another false assumption.

Is anyone surprised?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The bold is another false assumption.

Is anyone surprised?

This is the only logical conclusion, Sissy.

 

[Ariel82]

The only ones who would do this are those who are being drawn. On the day of Judgment, there will be no drawing and no desire to seek forgiveness.



If the answer to this is 'yes', then grace becomes null and void.



I think its many steps too short, imo.



Exactly. But they also sought this via works, and where works are, grace ain't.

So....if you agree, why are y'all give me such a hard time?

 

[Ariel82]

This is the only logical conclusion, Sissy.

No, its jumping to conclusions without prayer or having an honest dialogue.

If I don't understand fully what someone says,i ask questions and give them a chance to explain.

I don't jump to the conclusion they are heretics and put false statements in their mouth.

I don't attack and tell everyone they lie and misrepresent me, i address them directly and tell them what I really believe.

Then the ball is in their court to apologize or continue in pride.

I know you and p4t are real life buddies, but it's not the "logical conclusion".

It is a biased one based on preconceived false judgement of others beliefs.

Most people if told "I am not a Universalist" would listen to How someone believes or understands the verse before slapping the label on them over and over.

It's insulting and does not reflect the gentleness of spirit in which God has instructed me about His truths.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, its jumping to conclusions without prayer or having an honest dialogue.

If I don't understand fully what someone says,i ask questions and give them a chance to explain.

I don't jump to the conclusion they are heretics and put false statements in their mouth.

I don't attack and tell everyone they lie and misrepresent me, i address them directly and tell them what I really believe.

Then the ball is in their court to apologize or continue in pride.

I know you and p4t are real life buddies, but it's not the "logical conclusion".

It is a biased one based on preconceived false judgement of others beliefs.

Most people if told "I am not a Universalist" would listen to How someone believes or understands the verse before slapping the label on them over and over.

It's insulting and does not reflect the gentleness of spirit in which God has instructed me about His truths.

Sissy, I was in the free will camp for the first 6 + years in my walk with God. I know all the ins and outs in that theology. If you follow that doctrine to its logical conclusion, it reeks of universalism.

Now, are you in the free will camp? If not, where do you stand? I ask to further understand your beliefs.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And being real life buds with P4T has nothing to do with theology. If we disagree with each other, we let each other know it. But we don't take it personally. When ppl on forums are disagreed with, they retract like a turtle's head into its shell and seem to feel like its an assault on their character.

This is a debate forum and debates become heated. So, I say this to you in jest only, "Lighten up Francis!"

ETA: And we do have a disagreement. He believes all Dodge owners will end up in hell. I reserve that judgment to Ford owners.

And owners of Chevy Quad-Cab Duramax diesels.

 

[Ariel82]

Sissy, I was in the free will camp for the first 6 + years in my walk with God. I know all the ins and outs in that theology. If you follow that doctrine to its logical conclusion, it reeks of universalism.

Now, are you in the free will camp? If not, where do you stand? I ask to further understand your beliefs.

I read and seek to understand the Bible as God intends it. I don't identify with either camp because neither label is universal in their beliefs.

I know what I agree with and I know what I disagree with and I know some things I haven't decided either way because it does not affect my walk with Christ.

I am fine with debates.

What I can't stand is hyprocrisy and pride that expects to be treated with respect when they give no respect.

What I dislike is when someone mirrors their exact same words and accusations back to the person, then that person see how "wrong" other person is speaking to them. But yet they can't see how wrong their own behavior is.

What I dislike more then lies and libel about me and what I believe, is lies people tell themselves about how righteous and justified their actions are even when they attack others and lie about their motives and beliefs.

 

[PeterJens]

At judgement day ALL will repent especially when faced with hellfire but it will be too late.

Years ago I would have believed this.
Repentance is founded on the belief people are wrong or there is another way to behave.

What happens when people decide they are what they are, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Look at Israel leaving Egypt. They put up with God, but when Moses was away, the old tyrant
had left, it is time to party. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Look at revelations, judged, cursed yet they refuse to repent.
Why should their rebellion be any less when they are judged?
Until they have life taken away and they know where they stand, they will believe they have their
rights.

 

[preacher4truth]

And being real life buds with P4T has nothing to do with theology. If we disagree with each other, we let each other know it. But we don't take it personally. When ppl on forums are disagreed with, they retract like a turtle's head into its shell and seem to feel like its an assault on their character.

This is a debate forum and debates become heated. So, I say this to you in jest only, "Lighten up Francis!"

ETA: And we do have a disagreement. He believes all Dodge owners will end up in hell. I reserve that judgment to Ford owners.

And owners of Chevy Quad-Cab Duramax diesels.

Thanks bro. We used to disagree almost totally, two differing camps. The thing I can say about you is that you considered what was said, you weren't in full ridicule mode as some on here. There were also a couple more who came to acknowledge the truth as well. One was a little more feisty, but she sent me a surprising email telling me concerning how she came to the conclusion that the DoG's are the truth.

One thing that has kept this from being any kind of animosity first and foremost is the grace of God.

Secondly there was never any time where I was accused of not preaching the Gospel, or attacked for my stance, lied about &c by you brother. Ganged up on like here from the angry arminians and others who sow discord and cause division? Yep, from others, not you. Reported for my beliefs to angry arminian mods who hate the Gospel? Yep, relentlessly. Attacked by an actual professor of a Baptist University who taught that salvation is a personal achievement? Yep, been there, done that.

The same things happen here too, make a thread, stand on the truth and those who compromise the Gospel will barrage the one standing to please other men and rush in calling names for doing so. These are the compromising games people play in order to support their ecumenism while they pretend to defend the faith and hold to sound doctrine. They are men-pleasers, it is more important to them to please their friends, so they will not take a stand unless they lose forum popularity. That is more important to them than what is at stake: and that is the purity of the Gospel. They are compromising the Gospel as well in that in so doing they are sending an unclear message as to what is truth by having a flimsy stance and not earnestly contending.

I appreciate you brother, and you are relentless to protect the truth. And you know I love you in Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

Some folks may just regret getting caught, does that qualify as repentance, Peterjens?

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus said that all the Father gives Him WILL come to Him, and all who come to Him, He will never cast away.[John 6:37]

Jesus said if He is lifted up, will draw all men to Himself.[John 12:32]

Jesus said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one could come to the Father except through Him.[John 14:6]


So, it appears that it is the Spirit that quickens, Jesus who draws, and God that seals them in their salvation.

Guys and gals? Your thoughts?

Yes, Jesus will draw all men unto Him. It means not just Jews, and it is not every man who ever lived. There are some who have lived, died and had never heard of Him -- we don't completely understand all this, but we trust God and know it to be true. He is beyond our thoughts, finite minds and reason. Certainly there is a perfect reason in His perfect plan, and we cannot understand these things completely on this side.

 

[Ariel82]

Thanks bro. We used to disagree almost totally, two differing camps. The thing I can say about you is that you considered what was said, you weren't in full ridicule mode as some on here. There were also a couple more who came to acknowledge the truth as well. One was a little more feisty, but she sent me a surprising email telling me concerning how she came to the conclusion that the DoG's are the truth.

One thing that has kept this from being any kind of animosity first and foremost is the grace of God.

Secondly there was never any time where I was accused of not preaching the Gospel, or attacked for my stance, lied about &c by you brother. Ganged up on like here from the angry arminians and others who sow discord and cause division? Yep, from others, not you. Reported for my beliefs to angry arminian mods who hate the Gospel? Yep, relentlessly. Attacked by an actual professor of a Baptist University who taught that salvation is a personal achievement? Yep, been there, done that.

The same things happen here too, make a thread, stand on the truth and those who compromise the Gospel will barrage the one standing to please other men and rush in calling names for doing so. These are the compromising games people play in order to support their ecumenism while they pretend to defend the faith and hold to sound doctrine. They are men-pleasers, it is more important to them to please their friends, so they will not take a stand unless they lose forum popularity. That is more important to them than what is at stake: and that is the purity of the Gospel. They are compromising the Gospel as well in that in so doing they are sending an unclear message as to what is truth by having a flimsy stance and not earnestly contending.

I appreciate you brother, and you are relentless to protect the truth. And you know I love you in Christ.

Do you just accuse the mods of hating the Gospel?

That is a false and groundless accusation. May God save your soul from the bitterness and anger that has blinded you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Some folks may just regret getting caught, does that qualify as repentance, Peterjens?

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I wanna chime in. I say no. True repentance is turning from one's self and turning to God. Ppl, when they stand condemned, will not turn to Him.

 

[preacher4truth]

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I wanna chime in. I say no. True repentance is turning from one's self and turning to God. Ppl, when they stand condemned, will not turn to Him.

Just because a murderer stands when the judge enters doesn't mean he has repented.

 

[kaylagrl]

​My MIL is coming today for mothers day so I wont be on.I'll leave you all to discuss.Be good!!