Not By Works

[followjesus]

Scripture also says that there are Lord's many and gospels many. Therefore, it is important to have the right Jesus and the right word. You cannot claim to be in Christ while engaging in idolatrous practices. That is in fact the meaning of when the kings of the earth and the inhabitants are intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. It is figurative for being unfaithful to Christ while claiming to be his true follower.

We need to be in the right doctrine and not be blown about by every wind of doctrine. God's word is the standard. Anything that deviates from His word should be deemed as false. We should be like the Bereans who seared the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was telling them was the truth.

thats really great stuff there man. I think the issue with paul is not is he telling the truth, but as peter warns " Hes hard to understand, but very easy to distort. especially if we dont have the truth in us first..... God bless

 

[BillG]

Here we go Bill.
Strong's. What nonsense. Do you realize how long it takes to learn Koinè Greek?
That's like somebody trying to learn §English by reading a Webster's Dictionary.

I have plenty of access to a theologian who also taught theology AND who knows koinè Greek and taught it.
When I came here and started hearing about the AORIST tense to the point of nauseum, I went to him and asked about it.

He said to forget it. It's too complicated to explain and it changes depending on how one uses it. He said the bible is clear and it's not necessary to know Greek unless some theologians are trying to figure out some minute nuanse.

I hear it's a past action that goes into the future. THIS IS NOT CORRECT.
Anyone here could look this up on Google.
It's nice to post here what we THINK. But it's not WHAT IS.

Just using your explanation of believe ALONE, we'd have to conclude that if we're to have FAITH and TRUST in Jesus , then we'd have to do everything He said.

Which includes an interior change and which includes DOING THINGS, as He instructed.

Now, why are many afraid of this? Could it be because they feel they aren't doing enough?

WHEN, in history, did all this thinking begin? Was it around in the early days when people who knew Jesus wrote things?

Is anyone here interested in what THEY thought, or are we just interesgted in what Calving taught and what some in the past 200 years or so taught.

Do we trust THEM MORE than we trust those early persons who were there around the time right after Jesus died and who kept the faith clean from all the heresies that arose?

WHO DO WE TRUST?

Talk about religion watering down Christianity.
The latest theologians have watered down Christianity to the point that we can hardly distinguish a non-beliver from a believer.

And I think about new Christians reading along here.
They're told all they need is faith.
They're told they cannot lose their salvation.

I only hope they read the New Testament on their own and come to their own conclucion.
If one does this, the truth will come through.

So much Greek seems to be needed to destroy the two notions I listed.
So much twisting of what words mean and what who said it means.
IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS AND IT SAYS WHAT IT MEANS. SIMPLE.

ok explain it to me what faith is as if I'm a 5 year old.

I also have access and had excess to theologians skilled in Koine Greek.
You obvioulsy seem to think I am teaching some heresy.

 

[FranC]

Scripture also says that there are Lord's many and gospels many. Therefore, it is important to have the right Jesus and the right word. You cannot claim to be in Christ while engaging in idolatrous practices. That is in fact the meaning of when the kings of the earth and the inhabitants are intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. It is figurative for being unfaithful to Christ while claiming to be his true follower.

We need to be in the right doctrine and not be blown about by every wind of doctrine. God's word is the standard. Anything that deviates from His word should be deemed as false. We should be like the Bereans who seared the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was telling them was the truth.

There is one Lord, one God, one gospel.
How do you know YOU are serving the right Jesus?
Have you spoken to Him personally?

What is the person following a different Jesus doing wrong?

Is the WOF movement following the right Jesus?
How come we don't hear about them.
They make God to be OUR serveant, instead of the other way around.
God as Santa Clause.
Is THAT a different Jesus?

What about the Hyper-faith movement.
Is that a different Jesus.
All we need is faith... who cares what Jesus said to do. We have faith, right?

 

[slave]

i am finding it difficult to see what you are finding fault with what I am saying.

The word we are taking about is what does faith/belief mean. If we place saving faith in Jesus the implications of it will follow through in us as an outworking of love.

Not unless you actively love Him back thru your will as He affords you that chance, and even so thru Him. But it will never be Him despite you, or Him over-ruling you; the soul will always be the engine of a mans personality, but it is our choice as to whom the Spirit is that will rule that engine; our cooperation not withstanding.

A "believer" in Jesus Christ Is a phrase that embraces the whole of Christianity.....

To believe in Jesus means much more than the experience of Salvation in any form; it entails a mental and moral commitment to Our Lord Jesus Christ's view of God and man, of sin and the devil, and of the Scriptures.

We say "Seeing is believing," but it is not;we must believe a thing is possible before we would believe it, even though we saw it. Belief must be the will to believe (faith), and I can never will to believe without a violent effort on my part to dissociate myself from all my Old Ways of looking at things and putting myself right over on to God.

 

[BillG]

Slave is saying that you have to do things in order for a relationship to continue.

What if I don't FEEL like doing anything?
What if I don't FEEL like being nice to people?
Am I still good?
Is Jesus happy with me?
Based on what HE said, I don't believe He would be.

What Slave is saying, and I agree, is that we are REQUIRED to do works, it is NECESSARY to do works...
Whether or not we feel like it or whether or not we do them out of love or because JESUS COMMANDED THAT WE DO THEM.

Sometimes I don't like my husband,
I still make dinner.

Fran you have seen many many of my posts can you post any where I have said anything contrary to what Slave is saying.

i have always said genuine saving faith will result in action and bearing fruit.
I have also said if we don't see it we need to pull whoever aside and talk about it, not judge them first as unbelievers.

I though you knew me better than that.

 

[followjesus]

I am puzzled. Loose what? If I say I have a car. I know when I have it and I know when
it is gone. I can even prove the reality and show the car.

So when we have faith in Christ we have salvation. We believe so are saved.
Cause, faith, effect, salvation. We are given the Holy Spirit as a deposite and we see in our
lives love working through them.

So what happens if faith leaves us and the Holy Spirit no longer warms our hearts?
We no longer are part of the promise.

But let us get real. Do we know love and has it transformed us through Christ?
In Christ is there anything we lack? So why would we walk away and why would
fear grip our hearts. Jesus does not abandon His people or those who hope in
Him. The cross is eternal testimony to this.

I can see how some could see saying one can loose this love is similar to saying
I could be abandoned for no reason. Some have known this in their lives, and fear
this type of loss. God is not like that. You need though to know the limits of love
and understand it does have boundaries and rules. It is given freely to those who
open the door and walk in its ways.

So we can loose what we have gained, and choices need to be made. But they are
easy and good though the price is very high. Are you willing to pay, though I trust
most here know of what I share. What makes me wonder is how love is working to
show some of the fruits being displayed.

some see an instruction on How to Live, as condemnation. such as

matt 6:14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

one views this as life, the other as condemnation. its the old minds perception of it, and the new minds perception. to me i see this as a promise of Life, another sees it as a way to " lose your salvation" the mind that comes from horeb v the mind created by Christ Jesus

 

[FranC]

ok explain it to me what faith is as if I'm a 5 year old.

I also have access and had excess to theologians skilled in Koine Greek.
You obvioulsy seem to think I am teaching some heresy.

Well, actually I have taught it to 5 year olds, and 13 year olds.

FAITH:

Faith is an action --- it's not a feeling.
You get to a supermarket and desire to go in the entrance. There's an escalator you have to take.
You have to GET ON the escalator to go up. You have to have faith that it will take you up.
If you have faith in Jesus, you have to do what He said to do to get you where you want to do.
He said He was preparing a place for you. He said if we're friends we'll do what He said.
I fail to see the problem with this.


BELIEVE:

To believe someone is to have faith in them, it's to know that what they are saying is true, it's to look up to them, to understand what they're saying and to accept it with both your heart and your mind. If we believe someone we want to follow them, we want to know what they teach, we agree to it, we do it.

This is faith, and this is believe.
Either one demands that we follow what Jesus taught.
And stop worrying about why we're doing it.
And stop saying that all we need is faith; this is not so.
We need to FOLLOW Jesus, we need to be disciples, we need to have faith in Him and to believe Him.
Peter, Andrew, John, all the Apostles LEFT EVERYTHING to follow their Lord.
This is how much trust and belief and faith they had in Him.
And we have trouble just saying that we "work" because He instructed us to.

 

[BillG]

Not unless you actively love Him back thru your will as He affords you that chance, and even so thru Him. But it will never be Him despite you, or Him over-ruling you; the soul will always be the engine of a mans personality, but it is our choice as to whom the Spirit is that will rule that engine; our cooperation not withstanding.

A "believer" in Jesus Christ Is a phrase that embraces the whole of Christianity.....

To believe in Jesus means much more than the experience of Salvation in any form; it entails a mental and moral commitment to Our Lord Jesus Christ's view of God and man, of sin and the devil, and of the Scriptures.

We say "Seeing is believing," but it is not;we must believe a thing is possible before we would believe it, even though we saw it. Belief must be the will to believe (faith), and I can never will to believe without a violent effort on my part to dissociate myself from all my Old Ways of looking at things and putting myself right over on to God.

I am obviously not expressing myself clearly. I have never said anything contrary to the above in any post I have made on this forum.

However belief is not the will to believe. It is not something we will but it is something we have and what we walk in as children of God and our actions will prove our faith.

 

[slave]

Fran you have seen many many of my posts can you post any where I have said anything contrary to what Slave is saying.

i have always said genuine saving faith will result in action and bearing fruit.
I have also said if we don't see it we need to pull whoever aside and talk about it, not judge them first as unbelievers.

I though you knew me better than that.

Let me ask you "How does your real faith result in real fruit? Magic? God intervening without your agreement and behavior following suit? My problem is you never take on the obligation to Christ, the fear and meekness in your relationship to Christ; only the blessings of Christ in your faith. Or am I not seeing it? Let me know....

 

[FranC]

some see an instruction on How to Live, as condemnation. such as

matt 6:14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

one views this as life, the other as condemnation. its the old minds perception of it, and the new minds perception. to me i see this as a promise of Life, another sees it as a way to " lose your salvation" the mind that comes from horeb v the mind created by Christ Jesus

Are you saying you lose salvation because you didn't forgive someone?
How much nonsense does one have to hear?

First of all could you please exegete the verse you quoted.
What exactly does it mean?

Then, could you tell me how one loses salvation.

Thanks.

 

[slave]

I am obviously not expressing myself clearly. I have never said anything contrary to the above in any post I have made on this forum.

However belief is not the will to believe. It is not something we will but it is something we have and what we walk in as children of God and our actions will prove our faith.

I believe my Bible says to me, belief is is the will to believe.It is also up to my will to stay in Christ Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

NO MMD

Your Catholic friend is CORRECT.

Wow! This explains a lot! Your true colors are showing.

If you understood what BELEIVE means and what FAITH is,
You'd agree with him.

I understand what BELIEVE means and what FAITH is and it's not what the RCC says it is.

But we here prefer to understand everything in terms of Jesus saving us and
OUR NOT HAVING TO DO ANYTHING IN RETURN.

There is nothing that we can do to ADD to what Jesus already DID to save us. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Jesus did nothing but speak about works and what WE HAD TO DO to gain heaven.

John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Jesus did not teach salvation by works.

Please stop giving us your opinions and post some verses where Jesus said to ONLY BELIEVE IN HIM and everything would be good.

My opinion? Hebrews 11:1 and Greek words and definitions from the Strong's Concordance are not simply my opinion. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVE plus what? Plus nothing. That's not merely my opinion either.

THERE IS NONE.

Because the only one you'll find is the verse saying that we are to believe in Him whom God sent.

I just quoted 9 verses from Jesus in which He said BELIEVE "apart from additions or modifications."

Catch-22

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN???

I already explained what BELIEVE means in post #7388. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you BELIEVE IN HIM then you are trusting in HIM as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (good works) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

 

[FranC]

Fran you have seen many many of my posts can you post any where I have said anything contrary to what Slave is saying.

i have always said genuine saving faith will result in action and bearing fruit.
I have also said if we don't see it we need to pull whoever aside and talk about it, not judge them first as unbelievers.

I though you knew me better than that.

What makes you think I'm talking about you?
I'm only answering your questions.

There are some here, very few, who insult and call people names and then tell me how holy they are, and how they have faith and how they believe.
I will not accept this.

 

[AllenW]

Fran you have seen many many of my posts can you post any where I have said anything contrary to what Slave is saying.

i have always said genuine saving faith will result in action and bearing fruit.
I have also said if we don't see it we need to pull whoever aside and talk about it, not judge them first as unbelievers.

I though you knew me better than that.

Wow!
What an awesome avatar!
A conquerer for Christ!
I like it!

 

[BillG]

Well, actually I have taught it to 5 year olds, and 13 year olds.

FAITH:

Faith is an action --- it's not a feeling.
You get to a supermarket and desire to go in the entrance. There's an escalator you have to take.
You have to GET ON the escalator to go up. You have to have faith that it will take you up.
If you have faith in Jesus, you have to do what He said to do to get you where you want to do.
He said He was preparing a place for you. He said if we're friends we'll do what He said.
I fail to see the problem with this.


BELIEVE:

To believe someone is to have faith in them, it's to know that what they are saying is true, it's to look up to them, to understand what they're saying and to accept it with both your heart and your mind. If we believe someone we want to follow them, we want to know what they teach, we agree to it, we do it.

This is faith, and this is believe.
Either one demands that we follow what Jesus taught.
And stop worrying about why we're doing it.
And stop saying that all we need is faith; this is not so.
We need to FOLLOW Jesus, we need to be disciples, we need to have faith in Him and to believe Him.
Peter, Andrew, John, all the Apostles LEFT EVERYTHING to follow their Lord.
This is how much trust and belief and faith they had in Him.
And we have trouble just saying that we "work" because He instructed us to.

I have never said faith is a feeling and I have never said that faith is all we need.
Faith is placing ones trust is Jesus, to believe in his claims.

Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Out of this the outworking of belief in ones heart should start to become evident.

We love Over because he first loved us.
His love is perfect ours is not, yet as we grow in him our love for him grows along with our love for others.

Now love is not a feeling it's an act of ones will.

 

[FranC]

Wow! This explains a lot! Your true colors are showing.

I understand what BELIEVE means and what FAITH is and it's not what the RCC says it is.

There is nothing that we can do to ADD to what Jesus already DID to save us. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Jesus did not teach salvation by works.

My opinion? Hebrews 11:1 and Greek words and definitions from the Strong's Concordance are not simply my opinion. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? BELIEVE plus what? Plus nothing. That's not merely my opinion either.

I just quoted 9 verses from Jesus in which He said BELIEVE "apart from additions or modifications."

I already explained what BELIEVE means in post #7388. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you BELIEVE IN HIM then you are trusting in HIM as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (good works) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Oh please.
There you go again with the Greek. Where did YOU study it?? For how long??

You can't add anything to what Jesus already did to save you?

Nice. SO SIT BACK comfortably and don't do anything.
And critcize those who ARE doing something, as Jesus HIMSELF instructed us to do.

And I'd also appreciate it if you stopped putting down Catholics.
Why not stick to verses and scripture and quit hating your Brother Christians.

Do you know what Jesus said about loving each other?
Then WHY aren't you doing it???

 

[followjesus]

Are you saying you lose salvation because you didn't forgive someone?
How much nonsense does one have to hear?

First of all could you please exegete the verse you quoted.
What exactly does it mean?

Then, could you tell me how one loses salvation.

Thanks.

again Jesus Christ your savior teaches that repeatedly in the Gospel. you are seeing that im saying "you can lose your salvation" i see the same verse as instruction of the One who suffered every indignity, was spit on, beaten ( more than once) flogged, mocked, insulted, accused falsely and eventually nailed to a cross for MY SINS <<<< that gives me the perception that Jesus word is for me, not against me. I know without fail He is worthy to follow His word, because He shed His glory from on High, became a lowly humble man, and spilled His blood to purchase me from death. on the other hand i could " Just ignore it, argue against it and see it as a way to " Lose salvation" but id rather Just honor Jesus with all i have to give within me and without.


security is found in accepting Jesus word along with His pain and suffering whether you are perfectly obedient or whther you are stumbling at the moment its about this


2 corinthians 5: 14-15 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

I personally Know better than to judge even myself, because Christ earned that place in my life. if what He did for us isnt worth living the rest of our pitiful earthly life for Him completely, nothing will ever bring us to God. i have never said someone could " Lose salvation" i think its a silly argument to be honest i cant offer salvation, or take it away.......But I know who it is found in and His word is worthy of my faith.

 

[FranC]

I have never said faith is a feeling and I have never said that faith is all we need.
Faith is placing ones trust is Jesus, to believe in his claims.

Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Out of this the outworking of belief in ones heart should start to become evident.

We love Over because he first loved us.
His love is perfect ours is not, yet as we grow in him our love for him grows along with our love for others.

Now love is not a feeling it's an act of ones will.

Bill, I NEVER said you said anything....
I was only answering your question.

I'm not disagreeing.
What I'm saying is that we MUST act on our faith, whether or not we want to.
Some here make it seem like one has to do nothing but only believe.
Jesus never said this. He spoke about how we are to be and what we are to do.

I will not be put down for repeating what Jesus said.

 

[FranC]

Wow!
What an awesome avatar!
A conquerer for Christ!
I like it!

Joan of Arc was a conqueror for Christ.
We're just talking.

 

[followjesus]

Are you saying you lose salvation because you didn't forgive someone?
How much nonsense does one have to hear?

First of all could you please exegete the verse you quoted.
What exactly does it mean?

Then, could you tell me how one loses salvation.

Thanks.

you dont Know where that verse is from? its Jesus teaching How to pray.....forgiving others is a principle He taught. its part of the Lords Prayer when He says " when you pray say.....check it out the sermon on the mount is the Lord teaching about His Kingdom the same who died for you. its valuable stuff and should be taken as the Word of the Lord, because it is